Josh Sharkey (11:00.768)Okay. If I throw this mic over there, will it damage the mic? I'm just kidding, yeah. Yeah. If I throw it at them.
That one happens to be my mic, so you can do it, he won't care.
Josh Sharkey (11:14.446)So yeah, so pizzeria's back then were little storefront shops usually with one guy who owned and was the pizzaiolo. The pizzaiolo is the the man, you know, the guy who makes the pizza. in Italy there's a special name for that guy. It's pizzaiolo, the man who makes the pizza. It literally translates. and he would make the dough usually and he would have someone like me
Great cheese, open cans of tomato sauce, that kind of thing. But he would make the dough, he would form the balls and then make all the pizza, you know, as soon as they open at around eleven, twelve.
So this wasn't one of those like commodity, you know, like they must have st did they have those back then even? Like to like you know, just buy buy everything pre made?
No. Yeah, there were there were sort of. There were s I don't think there were a lot of those back then, no, actually. We what we had along those lines back then was Burger King and McDonald's and maybe a Wendy's, but no there wasn't I don't think pizzeries had seen the advent of, you know, Cisco pizza pizza by Cisco yet. So we had to make everything. And I had I my job was a great cheese c cut open cans of tomatoes. Thank you, Kimel.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (12:13.314)Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (12:17.454)Ha ha ha.
Rocco Dispirito (12:25.422)Souder bread. okay. That's good. I some blue dead of popular the most popular pasta using. That's the most popular pasta? Yes. Is that
and a little food for us in case you get hungry.
This is brodetto, cool, yeah. Nice. papardel with smoked short rib ragu. Most popular dish, actually, yeah. And spaghetti pomodoro.
Can we have some fresh parmigian if you like? I mean you know, for the camera at least.
Mitch don't put it in the brodetto though. Yeah, for sure. It's a fun grader, I think.
Rocco Dispirito (12:58.75)I like your I like your grader. It's a nice grader. I I spent most when I go to Italy I I almost always want to spend most of my time in Emilia Romagna. And there's have you do you know Balsereno Sol de Bruno? It's like the it's the oldest Parmesan farm in in in well in the world but in in Parma. and it's and they use these brown cows from
Yeah. No. Thank you. Come on.
Josh Sharkey (13:27.8)Right.
well these these Swiss brown cows but what was incredible was I mean the cheese is insane, it's the best problem I've ever had. but they have all of these Hindus working there because from from India because they like worship cows. So they're like you know they they worship the entirety of the of the process and man, like the whole like the like they just live and breathe for these cows.
yeah? Okay. Okay. Right.
Rocco Dispirito (13:55.766)and like the cheese obviously the cheese is incredible, but they also make this gelato that was like insane. I I mean a million reminder for like yeah. Massage tell bedtime stories. all right, so you you fell in love with cooking through this pizza shop.
So the cows are well taken care of. Yeah. That's cool.
Josh Sharkey (14:11.246)Yeah, I th I think what happened was the pizza shop saved me, you know, from a summer on the streets, a summer not enjoying music I liked. it taught me what's that? Jamaica. Jamaica, yeah. Sal. S a guy's name was Sal. It was Sal's Pizza on Hillside Avenue. Or no, it was on Sutfin Boulevard, right by the Sutfin Boulevard rail r subway stop. And it, you know, basically taught me that work is salvation, the work is freedom, work is independence. And also on top of that
What was this Jackson Heights or Jamaica? What Jamaica, gotcha.
Josh Sharkey (14:41.026)Work in restaurants is super fun and also flavorful. And comes with a lot of fringe benefits like eating as much Italian ice as you want, because you let me eat all the blue Italian ice that I wanted to eat. I d so back then blue Italian ice was a little hard to find. What's that? No, I don't remember Uncle Louise. Uncle Louis. The Marina's Italian ice was the big Italian ice if you bought, yeah. So they there was a tricolor Italian ice with lemon
Was Uncle Louise around then? Was Uncle Louis around then? You know like the Uncle Louise Italian ice? Like all over Queens and Brooklyn.
Josh Sharkey (15:09.94)Strawberry and the blue flavor. And the blue flavor we all contend was bubblegum flavor. Yeah, or cotton candy or s meh, that's probably really what it was. And there was never enough. So we were always looking for the blue, and the blue was always the one that was missing in the in the ten gallon you know container of ice and but so he would let me eat as much as I wanted. And for me that that was I would have worked just for that. So so I learned immediately a restaurant can
Isn't it cotton candy? Yeah or Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (15:26.441)Gallery.
Rocco Dispirito (15:33.08)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (15:37.635)do so many great things for you and I've I've absolutely fell in love with the whole thing.
But that's but that's what clicked where you're like, Okay, now I wanna go to culinary school?
Yes. It was almost that fast. It was I would say three more summers of restaurants and then by fourteen it it was totally embedded in me. Yeah.
did you end up like bailing early and getting into CIA sixteen?
Because I wanted to go because I wanted to go to the CIA so badly and they had a wait list, I thought let me let me accelerate through school so that I can either work in a restaurant and get my sixteen hundred hours of experience that was required or you know, I won't lose any time if there's a wait list. I I did it just kind of like to prepare myself. I was also told by a guidance counselor at the time, remember those people?
Josh Sharkey (16:24.428)Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Di Martino told me if you find something you like, like a restaurant, you're very lucky. No one knows what they like at your age. So I'm gonna get you a job in your restaurant, I'm gonna send you to summer school, you're gonna graduate early, you're gonna go to the CIAA, and then you're gonna go work in Europe and he basically laid it laid out five years for me. And I followed it to the letter and was amazing. Yeah. So Mr. Di Martino, if you're listening, thank you. You were great.
At I mean that's great that he said you're I might
My guidance concerns similarly said y pushed me to culinary school but not not like hey go to Europe. I just
Yeah. But he was very persuasive and he and he taught me how I could spend a summer and and you know, basically eliminate a whole year of high school, which was great. Yeah.
Wild. By the way, Mike, you should try some of this if you can. Alright. Don't let get cold, you know? Hot food hot. all right, that's so this is kind of what I want to talk about is I think you have a interesting perspective on this. Is like the path of a yeah, yeah. I picked up, you gotta bite. I'm gonna I'm gonna do the same by the way. I'll stretch, I don't really care.
Josh Sharkey (17:21.174)Have a bite. I already picked it up. Come on man. I already picked it up.
Josh Sharkey (17:31.672)That's a sh short rib that you know, basically we make like I made a kunz and then we smoke it. get a light smoke.
You smoke it.
Rocco Dispirito (17:42.328)that's really good. yeah. Yes. It's part of the show. All right. You went to culinary school. But the path of a chef and I I I change my my perspective on this like every year 'cause at first I was like angry because, you know, you I mean it was, you know, the grow growing up it's like, okay, yeah, go work for ten years for this chef
Was it worth interrupting the podcast? Okay, great.
Josh Sharkey (18:02.328)You're not angry anymore? Congratulations. Amazing. Chefs are always angry, guys.
And then eventually you might get a sous chef position and then after that, you know and you you know you have to do this you know, ten million times and earn the right to be a sous chef and then eventually after twenty years you're now the path is very different. And not only is I think is it different, but we might just be maybe we had it all wrong. Like the okay, so here's my question, is like what is like honestly what like what what do you generally think is has changed about the path?
of becoming a great chef. And I don't I don't mean like an influencer chef, but th that can be part of it. Because what I also wanna like wanna hear your thoughts on is does it have to be one f before the other? Like could you be could you like get attention from a bunch of people, get a bunch of followers, and then become a great chef? It's all flipped upside down.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a great question. It's something I think about a lot. and I I I I was on PIX's morning show the other day with Ben Aaron. I know if you don't know him, you should be go go do a show, he'd love you. they asked me a very similar question. I said, You know, I I I wish I became a chef today 'cause all you have to do is post videos and watch videos. That's like basically how you become a chef today. And it's a very valid way to become a chef because
It's a very valid way to become a chef because
Josh Sharkey (19:27.724)The thing that what we we had no access to was the education back then, right? So you either had to go to culinary school or you had to beg and borrow and steal to get a job with a great chef who would be willing to teach you something of value. Now that you can do that by watching videos and and videos are a great way to learn. I'm a visual learner going on Google, looking up videos on how to make a bass cheesecake and smoke short rib and how to make lobster stock and those are all valid and terrific ways to learn.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (19:56.298)skills that we had to spend many, many years in kitchens to learn. So I don't begrudge people for being faster and smarter about learning their crafts and using videos instead of working in real kitchens. but there is definitely a difference between a person who is a chef on a digital platform versus a chef who's working in a kitchen executing every day. And I I think all you have to do is spend a day in the kitchen to understand that executing a hundred covers and making great video are two different things.
But by the way, I can't make a great video. And I don't even enjoy doing it. So there it's two different skill sets and they're both valid forms of the art and both entertain people and bring happiness and joy. And you know, I I think we just have to accept the fact that the path today is completely different but as valid.
So you said something I think you said it with with
Josh Sharkey (20:58.156)Right. And I watch TikTok all the time because I love learning about cooking. To this day I it's my favorite subject and it's fascinating.
I I I I still I I still learn too, but my my do you think that if you don't have the fundamentals and you go watch how to make lobster stock, you could still learn it all? Meaning like have we totally overestimated the value of repetition and time and being in the trenches?
I think sadly the intense focus on fundamentals in today's world is not necessary. You don't you don't need to have that education, that base layer anymore. you can skip a lot of that and you can learn how to make things and you can just go make them. Now if you're running a hotel and you have twenty million dollar food and beverage program, th it may not work 'cause you do need to be able to teach
Twenty, forty, a hundred fifty employees, right? And if you don't have those fundamentals in your fingertips and in your bones, you may not be a great teacher of those fundamentals. but for the vast majority of people participating in in our world, in the chef world, you don't need to spend a lot of time doing that. You know, if you want to learn how to make a bass cheesecake, you may not need to have spent six, you know, months or three years with a great pastry chef learning how to measure things because you you you cut to the finish line.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (22:21.07)Yeah.
You know. can you do it over and over? Probably you could, you know, and you'd have to make a lot of mistakes and get over those mistakes. But that's a that's a good way to learn too, you know.
Yeah, I guess it's really more what you want to do. but I mean you I re
Yeah. But it's a really fascinating subject and and something we should all be thinking about and talking about because I think a lot of us from the old school place a lot more value than we need to on the the fundamentals, the old path. Yeah.
Yeah, you're almost hating on these things you see and I mean
Rocco Dispirito (22:50.986)U Union Pacific's a example. Like you know, you were and you were young, right? But you were a technician, on top of it being a great restaurant, right? It was just like very technically like executed. to think that that that is somewhat possible now without going to work in France for many years and getting beat up in the in Kunz's kitchen for that many years is a little bit baffling. But I wonder also if it's like there's a different Yeah, it i I mean it is.
More than baffling, it's very annoying.
It's sad. It's sad. It's for it's for sure sad. But there also I I there is a difference between like being able to make something really well at home that's something everybody loves versus getting not even like doing it at scale, but like getting other people to do to do it for you. Like getting someone else to make the scallop with tomato water when not there. Like
Right. Right.
Josh Sharkey (23:42.358)Right, right. But think about that process now. It's it's so different. We use Me's now, thanks to you. And if it's not in Mi's, we there is no recipe and if and if we can't show someone a written version of the recipe that's all measured out perfectly, we can't even start to teach things. But in the old days we could skip that process, right? We could we could ha we could do entire menus without a single recipe written down because people had so much depth, so much experience, so much hand skills.
That we could just verbalize stuff. But we're never gonna do that again. We're never gonna walk into a kitchen and say, I'm thinking about a scallop dish, maybe some tomato water, go work on some tomato, you you figure out something with the scallops, come let's meet up in three hours and see what we have. You can't do that anymore because
Yeah, w well I think you can't do it one because anybody can learn any one dish. But yeah, Kunz would be like. Kunz would be like, Hey, I wanna use Petipois and Lavender and you know, sea bass and then but he w he would already know, okay, you already know how to poach, you know how to sear, you know how to do all those things, so g come up with some ideas.
Right.
Josh Sharkey (24:42.7)Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know how to scale and gut a fish. You know how to saute a fish. You know what butter to use. You know what pan to use. So n so now we are not what I do today is and and I keep saying Mies because we are such fans of Mies here and rely on it and we have tablets everywhere because it's an absolute crucial piece of the equation. We've used many other you know, we use craftable also. We use a lot of other pieces of software, but none of them work the way Mies does. So thank you for that.
But what do you do today then? For your I mean, I I actually haven't been in like running a kitchen person.
Rocco Dispirito (25:11.512)Thank you.
Mies. It's what you need in your kitchen. What is your tagline, by the way?
There you go. Mike already has the clip. There you go. By the way, what is this lobster? well, got recipes get me use is the we'll have to get you one of those t shirts.
got recipes, get me's. Got recipes, get me's. so now because because there are tools like me's, we can show that to anybody basically who walks into the kitchen and claims they can cook and more or less they can put the recipe together and then I'll have to show them several times probably and then, you know, during service watch it and keep correcting. But
I'm just gonna eat this whole thing like that.
Josh Sharkey (25:52.696)We just cut to the chase now. We just sh give you a blueprint, you know, which is recipe and instructions. We show you how to do it and then we just expect you to do it over and over and over again. Because there's never gonna be hours of other training. You're only gonna come in and learn how to make a dish you need to make and that's it. I'm not gonna teach you how to do you know, shallot Brenois on the mandolin with the medium blade if we don't need to. You know. Remember that at Kunst?
yeah. Yes. Yeah.
The shallow Bruno's? Yeah. When I find myself teaching people that I'm like, Well why am I bothering with like he doesn't need to know that and he's never gonna need to know and he doesn't care. You know, 'cause back back when you and I were doing that, we were like
what? my goodness, we were you know we were like physically aroused. Well you had to you had to yeah, you had to write everything down because there was no way to like go back to it later. It's like either you wrote it down, there's no videos, there's no Alright, here's another list of my like theme of depressing questions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right.
Rocco Dispirito (26:57.294)'Cause now, you know, we're getting older, like I have a lot of friends in their sixties that we worked with or fifty
You cook for a long time and then maybe you have s restaurants where you don't have a right let's just say that you're a great cook and you a you're you're the C D C for a great chef for quite a while and then this happens, this happens. You get to be sixty something, and then it's tough to run the line every night. Do you have to get into media now in order to have sustainability in the culinary career? Well
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (27:26.316)Well I think it's a lot harder to keep your product relevant if you're not in some form of media and by media, you know, I think we're talking about everything from television to digital media like Instagram.
I so I mean like
Rocco Dispirito (27:41.292)Yeah, so so w what I mean is like economically, physically, and then so like being recognized, right? If you don't if you're let's just say that you're the most incredible chef, you're just a technician. And you have and you have a restaurant that's really good too, but you don't you have never once touched social media, you've never been on TV, you're fifty, you're you know, you're good to fifty five. If you've never done any of that
Mm-hmm.
Rocco Dispirito (28:10.242)How much harder is it to now like sustain as a chef? Like to stay on your feet? Like make sure you're making enough money to be able to pay for your kids college or you know, and and and stay relevant.
Yeah. So I don't remember what it was like before media because I've been encouraged to use media to promote my my my craft, my product for so long that I don't remember what it's like before media but
Well this was yeah four media but the restaurant the the show the restaurant was what like ninety nine, two thousand?
Two thousand, yeah. Two thousand one, two, three, four. Yeah.
So for anybody I mean, for those that don't know, it was one of the first real re I think it was the th the first reality show.
Josh Sharkey (28:44.93)I think the first and and never to have well, I guess there's some shows that are like it now, but they're formatted.
No, there yeah, there was nothing like there was certainly nothing like it before and you were kind of in a battle with Shotoro during the show.
Certainly the show the the plot of the show was that battle, yeah.
but that was was that like what clicked like, yeah, I n I I need to make sure that I have eyeballs to be able to
No, it was my partner Steve Scher who would
Josh Sharkey (29:17.194)encourage me to promote versus perfect. So you can as an as a craftsman or artist or someone making something that people consume, you can perfect your craft or you can promote, right? And you're always struggling between how much of each you need to do. And my tendency was perfect, perfect, perfect. Never promote. I was actually very shy. I didn't even want to go into the dining room at the end of the night and speak to people. I was so shy I couldn't even do that.
So my my partner Steve who had no problem going into the dining room, very talkative attorney, would you know, he spent a lot of years encouraging me and letting me know that as a chef you need to be out there promoting as much as you're in the kitchen perfecting. And I've never stopped doing that since then. So for me it's been important to use media and word of mouth and whatever marketing available to stay relevant. I think it's very d the bottom line to answer your question is very difficult to
ignore media altogether today and be relevant. I don't know how you would do that. I don't know that word of mouth is enough anymore.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (30:25.004)Yeah. You know, I think about so I worked for Boulay b before Kunz and I remember Boulay Boul
Another one of the greats, yeah. I worked for Belay Afterkins.
Boulay and Daniel Belou started basically the same day in New York. And the trajectory of their career is very different. Boulay's one of the most well respected, you know, chefs. I mean, sadly, like I worked for Kunz, Boulay and Floyd and all three of them. Yeah, so I'm like I'm like chefs don't let me work for you because all three of them have passed.
Okay.
Josh Sharkey (30:50.156)And Floyd? great, great.
Yeah. And you know I worked at Kunz with Floyd, right? Yeah. Floyd Cardot is one of the greats. Sad to sad he's gone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. one of the one of the I I think the best line cook I've ever seen. you know, he's a great chef, but like when you see him on the line you're like, Okay, this
He's amazing, yeah.
And how about him and Kutz died in within thirty days of each other?
Rocco Dispirito (31:13.164)Well, I you I I should pull up my text threads. My you know, it's it's me and Floyd talk texting about Gray, 'cause that was in January. And then two months later, it's you know, and and Boulet was two years later. But I have I have some bittersweets with Boulay. He's a you know, he's an incredible chef, but you know
Crazy. Crazy stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (31:34.562)Well, like many great craftsmen and artists, he was difficult. But boy did boy is he good. Yeah.
But wan but the he was you know, he was a genius. But him and Daniel Ballou I just compare this to 'cause they literally started the same I think they lived together maybe. very different trajectory of careers. And Danielle's Yes, yeah. But Danielle's well, but even now, even like if you look at how they expanded, Danielle has I don't know, thirty, forty, whatever. and
Initially you mean, right? Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (32:03.148)Yeah. Well I mean Danielle Danielle embraces all forms of media and is has become a guy who can embrace a commercial version of himself. Yeah. Is that what you mean? Because he wasn't like that, right? And yeah.
Yes, and he's was great from very early on of Yes, yeah, exactly. Yes. And then he I think he realized, yeah, I I need to be in the dining room. I need to, you know, and like, you know, tell stories and he's incredible at it. Bullet was not that, you know. I mean he had his people, you know, that that that he that he, you know, like would would connect with, but it was a very different it was
Right. Right. Right.
Josh Sharkey (32:28.066)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (32:32.482)But don't you think Boulet was much more famous initially than Danielle? Yeah, yeah, than yeah, than Bulud. Yeah, yeah.
Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah. And then Balou but but you know, long before he passed, I think Balloo became sort of a different, you know at least like commercially, you know. I I I think if you asked most like people who who dine out all the time if they know Boulet or Balou, it would be a lot more Balloon. and I I and I Ballood or a lot more balloon. You know. but I think a lot of that's because he was good at
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (32:57.42)Right. A lot more ballooned or boule? Yeah, now for sure, yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (33:05.186)you know, at media really. I think you know, he's good at whether whether whether you say yeah, now he is, but the the last like ten, fifteen years.
Now he's now he is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because don't don't you find that originally Boulet was like a supernova, became super famous, and yes he wasn't a great schmoozer maybe or who wasn't doing reality TV, but he was so famous. I mean he was
I think those were in spite of in spite of not being great at media, he was just such a such a presence and such a supernova that like there was no there was no way around like this guy's a genius, you know, and you see his food and you see the apples and you see and you're like, Okay, there's you know, the story's told for him. whereas I think what what we've learned is like you yeah, you have to you gotta go tell your story often t to to stay in this career. That's that's the question I was trying to get to with you is like
Right.
Josh Sharkey (33:36.632)Force, yeah. Yeah. Right. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah.
Right, exactly. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (33:53.194)Yes, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Do you think it's possible to be the next boule and never talk to the media and never.
sadly I don't think that's possible anymore. I think you gotta I think for any artist to be commercially successful or even remotely successful on any by any measure, whether it's a commercial success or or just like a local neighborhood success, you gotta be out there promoting. and that's more true now than it ever was. I fought it for so long I didn't think you needed to promote. I thought you could just be great and you could just put out great product and the people who enjoyed your product would promote you for you.
And according to my partner Steve and and other people, many people since then, you know, that's not true. And I've learned firsthand you gotta be out there promoting and telling the story and making sure people have a reason to pay attention to you versus someone else who's also great. And there's so many great talented people out there now. I feel like there's more now than ever, right? Yeah. Because education is now democratically accessible, right? Everyone can get the information. That shit was gate kept, don't forget.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (34:50.412)Yeah. Yeah, I mean because it's more there's way more, way more. And it's a
Rocco Dispirito (35:02.624)It was. And there's just been a sort of a diaspora of like all the great people that worked at those restaurants moved and then you just there's an exponential. you know, like ten great chefs from UPAC go and open up their spots. Got Josh Josh Desellish and all these guys. Or what's the girl who's in media now? Lily something is Josh Reeves, media. sorry. but No, not Missy. Lily not not Lilia. What's the girl? She's she I think she works at this is at the taste.
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (35:25.142)Missy Robbins, Lilia?
Josh Sharkey (35:32.462)She works where?
think she works to taste. she wrote a book. I think she worked for you. Maybe she didn't. that's right. Yeah. Yes.
okay. Carlo Lally. Yes, yes, yes. Another great cook of mine who w went on to write several great books and yeah.
Yeah. But there's you know, but there's this new whole like trajectory. There's like the Olivia Tiedmans, is if that's what you pronounce her name, and then Notorious Foodies. I don't know if you know like there's like these Instagram phenoms who I look do have you seen Notorious Foodie? You sh like you should check out his Instagram. He's got like, I don't know, like f millions of followers. But you see him cook, that guy knows how to fucking cook. Like he's a he's a good cook. but all he does is this one style of video done really well and
Okay.
Josh Sharkey (35:56.397)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (36:00.407)I think so, yeah.
Josh Sharkey (36:06.093)Okay.
Josh Sharkey (36:13.452)Right.
That's his job. But that's like a job now. Like he hasn't a restaurant. He could probably do a you know, a management deal with and a lot of these folks I think I mean similar to you. I d I don't know how this the construct of like this works. That's another question I wanted ask you next. but there's this there's a whole other like job now where you can just be you know, a chef without a restaurant.
Content prom you mean a content creator? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but even but it's still kinda like you're cooking. Like you can go do dinner parties and just film it and you're still actually cooking for people. But so here's a question I have for you.
Right, right, right. And by the way, it's a hard job. I don't know if you've ever tried to produce a ton of content, you know, it's it's difficult. It's yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (36:49.57)No, I ca yeah, it is hard. It's really hard. Yeah, and to keep up with it and you know, it is, it is a really hard job. And okay, so here's another question I have for you because you I mean, I can't imagine what you went through with Union Pacific, that all being sort of in the media when it happened, and then Rocco's and you know I mean the space of Union Pacific is a little bit cursed I think 'cause you got you know, Jimmy Haber came in afterwards and you know, LaRont loses his brand.
Chloe loses her brand. you know, there's this there's a there's a there's a danger where chefs actually like lose their IP. And one, I'd I'd I'd love to understand what you think about chefs and your IP. And then also how you think about ownership of a restaurant. Because it used to be, yeah, yeah, I have to go find investors and then I gotta open a restaurant. Now, like Eric and Bruce, Bromberg, I think they're geniuses, right? They like they have they they build a really good brand and then they can
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (37:46.53)Yeah, they're great. Amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
like create management contracts where like they you know they you know I find Rocco I want Rocco's brand and I want his food, but I'll take care of the economics, you know, is like another way to run a business. What what are your thoughts on Chef's IP and then like actual ownership of the restaurant?
Mm-hmm.
Right, right.
Josh Sharkey (38:03.064)So I used to be very sensitive to the concept of losing control of your IP and I think what I've learned is it's not necessary to be as concerned as I was in particular, because
You can now use Instagram to get someone to click on something that will take them to your I IP, whatever it is today. And if it changes tomorrow, it's kinda not a big deal. You know, there's there's a way to bring people to the new version of you where I think if pre internet we didn't have the ability to bring people to our experience so easily.
That's a good
Rocco Dispirito (38:43.0)That's a good point.
So you had to really manage it and c and be careful about it. There's so many Rocco's restaurants out there now. I used to fight each one. I used to try to stop them and it it didn't stop me from opening bar Rocco and it's not going to. And if I had to call it Cafe Rocco or something other Rocco, it would have been fine, you know. I think people can find you if you have something of value to give give to them and you let them know you're out there, whether you were able to hold on to the trademark or not.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (39:12.994)You know. so I I would encourage younger chefs not to worry so much about that part 'cause you can really get caught up in trademark law and spending a lot of money protecting a brand, and the best way to protect your brand is to use it, it it turns out. So if it's in use in the public domain, that's really what's important. Yeah. So ownership's a funny thing, right? 'Cause
That's great. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. All right, and ownership.
Josh Sharkey (39:41.42)Hundred percent of something that's worth nothing is is nothing, right? you want to have a piece of something that's valuable, whether it's a traditional ownership structure or a management deal or a cash flow deal. and I think they're all great ways to run a business. I think a lot of the more most famous chefs that we know of, some of the greatest chefs we've ever heard of Daniel, Jean Georges, you know, I don't know for a fact, but they may not own
their restaurants and they may do licensing deals and that's a good way to do things. if you're the kind of person who needs to have a hundred percent control and you're gonna be there and operate yourself, then you know, maybe don't don't take too much outside investment. Try to control everything, own everything, and that can pay off, you know.
No, they yeah, they they bested a bunch, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (40:28.546)Yeah. yeah, I think I the more you build a brand, the more like you opportunity you have. J G does this a lot where he just licenses his name and he gets
Yeah, see Yeah, it seems the bigger you get, the more the less control you have and the more you have to l allow people to use your brand. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Alright, I'm gonna like change topic for a second 'cause 'cause you you I remember like vividly when you like turn you like went into this health direction, right? For for for quite a while. And you still I mean you still are I I imagine. And and you've you've written now like thir thirteen cookbooks? but but some of them were diet books, some of them were like, you know, like one
New topic pivot? Okay.
Josh Sharkey (40:54.105)yeah. For sure.
Josh Sharkey (41:00.878)fifteen, nine of them were health and wellness books. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
I'm curious I know that, you know, your your mother passed away in two thousand four, is that right?
Sixteen. Two thousand sixteen. Yeah. Yeah.
wow, 2016. I got that sorry I got that wrong. But I know that she took care of was it is it Henrietta? Was it Henrietta? Yeah, like 'cause I I heard you talk I heard you talk about this and Yeah. I but you know, there's this there's this sense I got from you of like you had to take care of your mom when she was getting sick and your mom also took care of you know, Henrietta. Did how much did all of that influence you going in this direction of health and helping people eat better?
Josh Sharkey (41:21.632)Henrietta Adams? Wow. Henrietta Adams was that was I think my first job. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (41:45.506)I would say that the medical experience and knowledge I I acquired while taking care of my mom be definitely factored into my ability to write health and wellness books. But more more of it w came from my sort of awakening about my own health in around two thousand three and trying to get into triathlons and understanding
how unhealthy I was and how much it was gonna take to to turn my you know abilities, my body, my mind around to to be able to finish a triathlon. I decided I want to do a triathlon. I'd I you know I it's a long story, but I I really got into it. Yeah. The gear, the finish line moment, it's just it was just too compelling. And I was not in restaurants at the time, so I really needed another obsession and triathlons are great because
Why did you wanna
Why?
Rocco Dispirito (42:31.254)I mean just kind of flying moment
Rocco Dispirito (42:40.28)Yeah.
It's swim bike run, you can't train enough, there's not enough time. And you know, it's basically impossible. So like running a restaurant. and so trying learning how to train for the triathlon pushed me in the direction of eating better and eating healthier food, which taught me so much. And what I learned was healthy and delicious are not mutually exclusive, and that's on the front page of all of my health and wellness books. And that was a big, big lesson for me. And that definitely played directly into
my willingness and ability to take care of my mom.
What is your health routine now?
Health routine now is eating less, moving more, b very simple way of looking at things. cutting down on things that I know are absolutely terrible for you, like sugar and alcohol, and a little bit of physical exercise. My back issues make it a little harder for me to do the triathlons and make it impossible for me to do triathlons and ride my bike like I used to. So
Josh Sharkey (43:46.498)I've been I've been slacking a little bit on that, but you can do a lot with what you just controlling what you eat, you know. Yeah. Sorry?
You have do you have a morning routine? Do you have a morning routine?
Sort of. Yeah, yeah. Nothing nothing to talk about, no. Sort of a morning routine. I eat qu I try to eat as quickly as possible. I know letting that breakfast window go is not great for your metabolism. So I try to eat within thirty minutes of waking up and I always have one of my shakes. Thirty grams of protein, eleven grams of fiber, no sugar. What's it made out of? a lot of cocoa powder.
Yeah, nothing nothing crazy. Nothing nothing you need to talk about. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (44:16.568)What is that? What do you
Rocco Dispirito (44:20.77)What's in those? What's in the sheikh, yeah.
Usually some pea protein, some egg protein, egg white protein, monk fruit monk fruit, some dairy sometimes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (44:33.206)Yeah. Yeah, I have a I have a protein shake every morning. Yeah. Yeah. Not right like it's it's usually around like eleven. Like all wait till eleven, but like it's one egg, peanut butter, dates, banana, and then pea protein and Greek yogurt and and and you know what a good Yeah, and pea milk.
good, yeah. I mean the protein shake in the morning is a good very good routine.
Josh Sharkey (44:42.605)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (44:51.064)Greek yogurt's a great way to make it a high protein drink. By the way, a couple of raw eggs also will do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I throw I throw at least one one egg in there and then pea milk is great because like you know, eight ounces of pea milk is is like eight grams of of protein. 'Cause the protein's the hard like if you I have a buddy who's like really helps me a lot with fitness and he's like, If you get hundred and fifty grams of protein in, eat whatever the fuck you want after that. But first get all your protein in. So that's what I do. I just what
Protein. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (45:14.54)Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that's why I try to get the thirty grams in within thirty minutes of waking up because I find it sets your metabolism for the day most of the day and satiety is achieved really quickly. You're not hungry for hours and you need that nutrition to fuel your body. and you can get all this stuff now very easily. You there was a time when I first started doing my healthy meal plans, you couldn't buy pea protein. It was very hard to find.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (45:26.797)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (45:41.272)You had to go, you know, to all the food shows and meet the manufacturers. Now you just go on Amazon, you can buy all these products. Monk fruit was not even legal in America when I started using it. Yeah.
How does it work? Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's that's a funky one, the monk fruit. How does it work?
Yeah. I had to go to Chinatown and buy monk fruit, whole monk fruit and powder it myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause everything is legal in Chinatown. Yeah. They seem to be it's amazing what they get away with. It's amazing.
Really? Jesus. how does how like how does it work your meal plans? I saw you do like you have to
So the meal plans r I d I did a customized predictive and prescriptive meal plan for the people who helped me prove my pound a day diet was an effective diet that delivered on a promise. When I published the book Pound a Day Diet, my publisher insisted I prove it. So I got twelve people on the diet that I wrote and they all lost weight and did really well. They also never wanted to stop, so they became clients after a while. And then it
Josh Sharkey (46:37.758)eventually became available to the outside world. And actually John Rigos helped me expand it at one time he was helping me bring it to the masses. and that was, you know, six to eight meals a day, all prescriptive based on your health and wellness snapshot and what your goals were. You know, so usually some form of calorie restriction, high protein, low carb diet was ha what what we did. But I had diets I had
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (46:45.579)that's cool.
Josh Sharkey (47:07.232)I had people who had Crohn's disease who wanted to gain weight, so I had to figure out every kind of diet.
Yeah. Yeah. That was my problem. I had to it was like impossible for me to gain weight. Yeah. No, I mean I put on like Yeah, I put on like twenty twenty five pounds. how am I what? Forty five. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean I I do a lot of like fasting. So I do like a three day fast co like four times a year and then for for about six years I was doing intermittent fasting where I would only eat like six hours a day and it was impossible to gain weight, no matter what I did.
really? Okay. Yeah. Is that fixed now? Are you forty yet? Are you forty yet? Okay, so you see it fixes itself at forty. okay.
Josh Sharkey (47:38.84)Yeah, no, that's that's a good diet. But but you r must realize that that's a form of calorie restriction, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I stopped doing that. I stopped doing it.
Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. so now I just like I'll do like like f few times a year I'll do a big a big fast, but otherwise I actually like I'm actually trying to eat more. Also trying to drink more, by the way. Yeah, I like didn't dr I don't I'm not a big like I don't I never really drank a lot other than college. And and I just generally don't like stop working, so I'm actually trying to try to make myself have a drink more often. Well, I do that, yeah, I do that every morning. Yeah. all right. So
s you drink more? Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (48:07.17)Right, right, right. Well you can have a protein shake again, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (48:16.726)You've I think you said I thought it was thirteen, so it's fifteen cookbooks.
Yeah. Fifteen cookbooks, nine health and
How painstaking is it now versus when you first started to like write a cookbook?
it's about the same. The the diet books are a little more painstaking because when you do macros and nutritionals, that's a lot of math. A lot of math. and you need a you need a diet expert. You need like a nutritionist to help you with that. So it's a lot lot it's another level of calculations that you need to need to do. And all my health and wellness books have macros and nutritionals worked out.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (48:46.072)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (48:58.146)And they also had complicated diet plans where, you know, if you consumed these eight meals every day, you were basically gonna lose this much weight. And that's a ton of math. not my strong suit, not not fun for me, but would you know, would add a year to the process. A regular cookbook is at least two, three years. A health and wellness diet book is like four. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (49:12.632)Yeah. You know what?
It's crazy. It's a lot. It's wild. I remember you know, before Gray passed, maybe like a year or two before he passed, he was working on this like health thing. He was working with doctors to try to like like start a restaurant that was completely like health focused. D did you did you ever talk to him about that?
Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I was I was he and I became interested in health and wellness I think around the same time.
Yeah. Alright, speaking of cookbooks. I I heard you mention La Technique from Jacques Popine's your favorite. Okay. Other than that one, so we'll dismiss that one, top five.
Yes, yes.
Josh Sharkey (49:52.514)Top five cookbooks. Wow. Okay. so La La Technique, la Méthode, both by Jacques Papin have to be in that top five for sure. Oddly, La Russe Gastronomique was a very important cookbook for me for the first 15 years of my my career. It was one of the first, you know, large volume reference guides. And most of the cooks listening are gonna be like, Well la what? I've never heard of that.
Yeah.
but La Russe Gastronomique, I think, still is i is fascinating, interesting, a great read, and also has a lot of the answers. and then anything by Dornenberg and Page, you know, the flavor bible is great. I like the flavor bible a lot because the question of what what goes with what is a very important question for many chefs. Eventually you learn that anything can go with anything if you finesse the balance enough. Sour, salt, sweet bitter.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (50:50.238)And so I'd say flavor bible, la russe, la technique, la méthode. Let me pick something from recent times. I'm obviously a huge fan of cookbooks, have a own a lot of cookbooks and love them.
Cooking by hand, like that one. Paubertoli. Paubertoli is cooking by hand.
who I don't remember it. No, I don't I don't know it. I don't I can't say that that was it.
It's great one for he's really good at all all the charcuterie in there is really, really good. The the he you know he had Olivto in in San Francisco, but his his ham recipe in there is like I think the best for like the brine. But they have really it's a really good cookbook for for charcuterie.
wow, okay.
Josh Sharkey (51:29.966)There's one that I use a lot. I'm trying to remember the name.
And it's not Thomas Keller, it's someone like him. It might be Thomas Keller though. It might be Ad Hawk or his first book, which is basically the French Laundry Coke book, yeah. I think so, yeah, I think so. And something that not only for recipe use, but like sort of like a culinary moral and ethical guide and and a place to get the best information about anything.
I mean the French laundry was like was like game changer when it came out. huh.
Rocco Dispirito (51:58.978)Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (52:04.256)Yeah, you know what's what really love that like was just beautiful, but also a great cookbook was Martin Pac you rem you know Martin Picard? yeah. That book is is beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful book, first of all. Like all the like photography and the like blood in the snow from the venison, but also really good recipes. And that restaurant is
Yes. yes, for sure. His first book? The one with the one with him on the cover taking a dump. Yes, yes. I love that book. I have that book for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. Yes, Martine, that's right, Martine. Yeah, yeah. Great recipes, yeah. Yeah.
I I I I actually ate there with with Gray when we cooked for the what is that called? The what's that? the Festival in Lumier. You know, where they like c you know you bring chefs from
Tokai? okay. Did you ever go up there to cook f cook for Norman Laprice at Toky? He was a friend of mine and Gray's and we used to do a lot of exchanges up there, yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (52:45.205)No.
Rocco Dispirito (52:50.038)Yeah. yeah, I love that book. all right. So we're gonna wrap up here. But a couple things. You mean y some of this revolves around Gray. Gray I think was the best at least for me the the best in the world at using black truffles. And I think most people most chefs just don't do it right. You d you do, right? And I I I
Sure, no problem. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (53:12.101)yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (53:17.934)Thank you. Thank you.
I I you had a couple of dishes where you used a like a whole fucking truffle and crushed it up. But like for the audience, how do you not fuck up using black truffles? Like not just the shaving truffles on whatever.
This might be the one time we where actual hands-on experience makes a difference. being in a kitchen with someone who knows what they're doing, who can teach you and allow you to experience the hands-on process of turning a truffle into something delicious without wasting it, might be something you need some practice at. And I think because I had great experiences in France when I worked in France and with Gray and other chefs.
I was able to see it without having to pay for it myself. Now that I'm I'm having to pay for it myself, I know what to do and I don't waste it. so I'm able to make make bring a lot of flavor out of it. I think f first of all understanding the different kinds of truffles and w how they should be approached is important. So the basic difference is a white and a black, right? Melanosporum versus magnatum pico. White truffles flavor is
volatile, very volatile and will release itself very easily. You don't need to apply a lot of heat. You just need to basically cut it, put it on something warm. And just knowing that is how you maximize that experience. But black truffles are s very different, right? They need heat, they need cooking, and you have to somehow cook them without losing any of the vapor and any of their volatile oils. And that that you just need to watch someone do it first and learn. Or watch a video. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (54:55.342)Yeah. Remember remember the Jew? The truffle soup.
Remember Gray's truffle sauce, the the not that one, but the what's the perigurdine sauce, the perigurdine. The the best perigurdine ever, yeah. Yeah, the port, the Mars Madeira port. Yeah, yeah, amazing.
he's got the black truffle sauce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Madeira and and port that you crash and Villeju and
Yeah. I think that for me was like a a real like eye opener when like the when you you know, you you crash the truffles with the pinier and the port and the jus and then you have cream. Fat I think is really important too.
yeah.
Josh Sharkey (55:19.018)Right. Yeah.
For sure. that's I'm so glad you brought that up. So knowing which flavors are lipophilic and which are hydrophilic, which meaning which are attracted to fat molecules and which are attracted to water molecules is really helpful. And in my first book, flavor, I talk about that a lot. So obviously truffles are hi lipophilic and attracted to fat. So if you try to cook truffles with water, you're not gonna capture flavor, hold on to flavor. It's the difference between like a cast iron pan and a stainless pan. You know, cast iron will
capture heat and hold on to it and a stainless steel pan will conduct heat but not hold on to it and it's the same same thing is true with flavor. But like cilantro, if you don't use water with cilantro, you're never gonna capture that cilantro flavor. and so just knowing which ones are hypo hydrophilic and lipophilic is a very important first step. I think it I think it's in like textbooks, you know, but also some memory. I I think if you cook basil in olive oil
How do you determine that? Is it
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (56:20.938)you know, you get a deeper, stronger flavor. So this is where actual real life experience may pay off. Although again you could just go on YouTube and say which flavors are hydro f and YouTube will have an answer now.
This is where actual real life experience is.
Rocco Dispirito (56:29.56)Yeah.
You know, it's funny 'cause I remember when I my first day at at Boulet, I had to make the ocean herbal broth, which no one tells you how to make. And I had to make the the you know, there's chive oil, there's fennel oil, there's parsley water and I and all these things and no one tells you how to make anything. It's like there's the parsley you know, they just call it the parsley th I don't think they said parsley water. And I would have never known that you'd like saute it and then blend it with ice. Yet the chives you do in the oil and the you like everything and it took me like Yeah, but no they they never they never tell you that.
yeah. Right.
Josh Sharkey (56:46.861)Right.
Josh Sharkey (56:54.4)Right. Right. Right, 'cause someone else did the troubleshooting for you, yeah. That's one of the greatest sauces to this day ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
yeah. Yeah, it's a pain 'cause it's like fifteen different things. But th that's why your lobster biscuits in a fat, right?
That's why my lobster biscuits has a lot of fat or does it?
Doesn't. I think you mentioned that you didn't put any cream or something in lobster bisque.
Josh Sharkey (57:19.006)I don't think I put cream because I th I always thought cream diluted the intensity of the lobster and butter is enough in that case. I also think people rely on cream a lot and a l especially in a lobster bisque to make up much of the volume. and I love that. I don't know if I learned it with Kunz or Boulet or who, but the you know, the s the bone the the lobster shells chopped up real small, sauteed, barely covered with liquid, you know, very intense concentrated broth.
Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (57:40.568)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (57:48.962)That produces a great flavor, you know, you don't need to really add a lot of cream. But butter and water does give you a creamy effect, you know.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. okay. wrapping up here, what's my the next ten years look like for me? Your next ten years. What do you got going on? This is when in Barraco open?
Sure.
Josh Sharkey (58:03.596)My next what? next ten years. you know, I don't know that I ever knew what my next ten years were. What about this? March. We opened in March, yeah. Hopefully there's more Bar Roccos in the next ten years. I'm working on another book. It's gonna probably take five years to finish. It's it's it's recipes plus stories, so more of a memoir. I just started with Cook Unity. Hopefully that's a big part of my next ten years 'cause that's
When when the barracco open? Gotcha. Okay.
Rocco Dispirito (58:31.612)that's cool. Yeah.
An incredible experience. Do you know that they're up to almost a billion dollars in sales? Can you imagine can you take a minute to appreciate a billion dollars?
Yeah. I remember when they first started Mateo's a super sharp
There well they're they're they're in a several countries now, right?
they're all in every state. I they're in Canada. I don't think they're in other countries besides Canada. But they went from zero sales to a billion dollars in food sales, only food, in ten years. Do you know how many of us have tried to go to a million dollars in sales? I mean it's crazy. Yeah. And they are delivering just so you understand what they do, they get the chefs to come in, make their own not just create recipes, make their own food with their own team.
Rocco Dispirito (58:51.138)Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (58:56.812)Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. It's nuts. Yeah. Well she
Josh Sharkey (59:15.534)Plate it fresh, never frozen, and they ship it to you within twenty four hours. Think about that. That is hard to do.
Yeah, and there's and there's a lot of great chefs that are that are doing it now. Yeah. That's cool that you're doing that. Alright, well you got a book, you got Cook Unity, more bar Bar Roccos, and then maybe Yeah. And then an album with Kiss at some point in the future.
all the great chefs, yeah. All the great chefs, yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (59:33.42)Yeah, hopefully, yeah. I I admit I love cooking every day, so hopefully there's a lot more cooking. An album of I did ask Paul to teach me how to play rock and roll all night once. And that was fun.
We will need to end this with a kiss and if I get sued I get sued but we'll just do a little risk it. Well he's banned.
Yeah, Okay. We'll we'll we'll rest it. Yeah.
I think less than eight seconds, you're fine. Yeah. Something like that, right? Isn't it like ten seconds or less? Yeah. Thank you, man. Great great talking to you today. We didn't talk enough about Mies. We got a t you know, that's a game changing game changing tool. Yeah. Yeah. Is there an app coming or we is it always Okay.
Chef. Really appreciate it, man. This is awesome. Yeah. well, you know, you gave you gave the perfect I appreciate that, man. You know, it's that's quite y yes, there is, among many other things. We actually like we're now able to develop so much faster because of AI that it's wild. Like it used to be and I have a really great team and it used to be like we would get a request and be like, Yeah, we'll work on that, maybe this and now it's you know
Josh Sharkey (01:00:25.41)Yeah. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (01:00:34.956)Now it's like literally, you know, what used to take us six months takes us, you know, six weeks. Well, we've b we've got our own models. but then we we we leverage, you know, some things with Claude and some things with, you know, Kimmy and some things with with with OpenAI. We we have to be really careful with none of the IP going through the AI because we don't want the any of those we don't want them to train on anybody's recipes. So it we like we have to build a lot to to separate those. Actually I just realized that
And which AI platform do you like best? Claude Chat? really? Okay, wow.
Josh Sharkey (01:00:54.563)because they absorb it.
I see. Okay, got it.
John from Apeachy years ago asked me like two years ago was asking for menu cards. So that like you know when you create a menu item a recipe, automatically create server cards for your servers that has like nutritions and allergies. That's live. So we're it's a it's well it's in it's in it's in staging now, so you guys will see it, you know, in the next couple of weeks and basically all your recipes automatically turn into build cards and you can customize them and things and
Would be great. Yes, would be great. Allergens. We're we're we're live with that now? Great.
Okay. Okay.
Josh Sharkey (01:01:30.742)Amazing. Because I'm I'm about to have a menu card meeting today with a manager to make sure they're accurate. Yeah. Cool. Great man. Thank you so much.
Yeah. well they they will be there soon. I appreciate it, brother. Thank you. Yeah.
Rocco Dispirito (01:01:51.022)Available to me whenever I want.
