Ming-Tai Huh (06:32.78)It's a good story, actually. It'll tell you something about me, which is I spent the first let's call it decade of my career in consulting. actually it was a a a stent and an I was worked at a dot com, so I aged myself. then got laid off from a dot com, turns the tail end of the Brugle bursting. in peer to peer lending. I would say actually great idea, phenomenal. Just maybe like
eight years too soon. yeah, you know, loaning strangers money and how do you like formalize that with technology. But then I went ended up in management consulting at a company called Altman Landry, now it's called Altman Solon. I was the tenth employee there and my clients were like big telecom companies. Verizon, ATT, Comcast, and and the topics were how do we get broadband to people's homes? Anyway, spent a good time about there, but then
While I learned a lot because being exposed to real serious large scale problems, I felt that management, consulting, and professional services was not my true calling. Like I wanted to be I wanted to be the client. I wanted to be the person who has the budget, who's spending the money and building something for customers, not clients. And so I kind of made the dive and switch from consulting to tech.
in the year around twenty eleven twenty twelve. So you see how things are lining up here. and in doing that, and and by the way, this is this is the timing of when okay, so the smart iPhones out, you know, but on the decline, app ecosystem, app appalooza is happening, you know, you know, because everyone's like just buying smartphones like crazy. And and that means you can do a lot of really interesting things to you know help people with whatever the problem is, whatever the challenges.
And I want it to be on that side of innovation of that curve. Well, it turns out when you have a lot of time on your hands or say unstructured time, trying to figure things out, because I was like, okay, I've got to quit consulting. I gotta gotta go all in on doing a startup or getting in tech. Otherwise, it's never gonna happen. And in that phase, I was also becoming more locally aware of my community. You know, not living out of the
Ming-Tai Huh (09:00.418)the suitcase four four days out of the week. So, you know, getting to know your neighbors, joining a few local boards. One in particular around was the Central Square, Central Square Cambridge, advisory committee. It was dubbed C two, so I guess like the next version. And got introduced to zoning policy, commercial building policy, a lot of the things that affect restaurants, right? But I didn't really kind of know it at the time. It was just
housing policy. and sort of just getting much more engaged in the community. I'm like, you know, I want to be part of this community. It's very rich. Cambridge is, yes, home to some great institutions like MIT in Harvard. it's also a really diverse and and dense city that has people from all walks of life. Lots of immigrants are actually based in a lot of in my neighborhood. And you can see sort of like the change happening around around all of this tech from Kendall Square where a bunch of the
Whether Microsoft's the Amazon's, the Facebook's built offices are kind of just like you know pushing into into the city. and so it's a worthy topic to get more more engaged on. anyway, look, the the idea of me being more locally engaged would be to me to start a business. Why don't you start a local business? That's how you get involved with your local community. and I've been going out to restaurants, you know, kind of fancy ones.
out per diem, you know, I could take my consulting money and and you know and then put it towards a meal. that's a way sort of how to like you could go to a nice restaurant, you know, but not have to pay like full price because, you know, your client is like covering some of it to whatever the limits were. and I sort of took that experience of going up to nice restaurants as a patron, wanting to invest in my community to starting a restaurant.
Josh Sharkey (10:55.284)So restaurant, I it kinda could have been anything, it just happened to be restaurant.
Ming-Tai Huh (10:58.882)Yes, that's true. You know, I'd say there's more detail to it, which was I was a regular at a restaurant called Craig on Maine and Chef Tony Moss was the owner proprietor. And it actu it was actually two blocks from my house. Doesn't exist anymore. Really sad, but it in its in its heyday around twenty ten, twenty n twenty eleven, it was basically like almost you know, arguably.
disputable, but like one of the top restaurants in the entire city. And because it was two blocks from my house, I was eating there like three nights a week at the bar, hanging out with the staff, getting to know the people behind the bar, not just, you know, imbibing great cocktails, but you know, getting to know people about like how did they end up in bartending? How did they you know, why did they do this job? How does this how does this business work? Because I'm just actually curious.
about restaurants I hear that did terrible businesses. Why would you been get involved? But when you really start like paying attention to the people who are serving you, you realize like how much passion that they have for the craft, especially at a at a place like Craig Yan Maine. And that sort of like became enamored by the business. Like the bartenders would say, like, hey Maine, you should meet Jake over here. He's works for this company. You guys should chat.
And it's sort like, wow, that's not normal. You know, or or like you're being treated like family. You're you're sort of being brought in as a as a guest in in this environment. And it's not just about the drink and the food that they're putting in front of you, but this entire experience. And I wanted to invest in something like that.
Josh Sharkey (12:42.582)That's cool. Well, y your restaurant group today it went from one to w what is it like nine?
Michael Jacober (12:47.726)And so the original Puritan, I would imagine you were not actually, you know, a boots in the ground operator, although I may be wrong, but did you have partners from day one? And if so, how did you integrate with those guys and or girls? How did that all come to pass?
Ming-Tai Huh (13:04.578)Yeah, yeah, absolutely. so one of the key people on our founding team was Chris Yordi, who was assistant general manager at Craig on Maine, then became the general manager of another bar at with a different group towards Harvard Square. And in particular, Chris was the one that I said, Hey, like when you want to start your own thing, because he was very entrepreneurial, I'd love to get involved and and invest. You know, it turns out when you tell restaurant people that, hey, you want to invest in their potential future projects.
They they call you back and they say, Hey, remember you said that thing? Let's talk. And so Chris did that. And, you know, then said, Look, there's this spot in Inman Square. It's this kind of like big room kind of restaurant. it's got a Mediterranean concept in there today. Turk Turkish chef, but it's a fire sale. They like totally have mismanaged the business and they want out, and that means that
We've got an opportunity to to get into the business at a lower cost, you know. It's gonna you know, and I'm thinking like from my consulting due diligence, you know, skill set, okay, great, wow, if I can get into the business like, you know, for cheaper here, that sort of reduces my risk. You know, still thinking kind of like that. But of course the question was like, okay, well, who's gonna like cook the food? What's the concept gonna be? And and that's that's ultimately what drove me
to then partner up with Will Gilson, Chef Well.
Josh Sharkey (14:35.47)How'd you meet him?
Ming-Tai Huh (14:37.214)it's funny, he is a chef and therefore is well connected with the food and the chef community, not my tech community. But I had a friend who was running a t a tech group in Cambridge called Venture Cafe, and it was kind of like a h happy hour kind of spot for founders to potentially meet each other. It's you know, Christy Social Club, open open to anybody. but she was dating a chef. She's
Caltech, MIT, running this cool venture thing, but then also dating a chef. And and so she had like one foot in in the world I was trying to get into and one that I was already in. And she said kind of like without a beat, she's like, Hey, you should talk to Will Gilson. He's doing pop ups on the Cape Cape Cobb. And you know, he's looking to to start a new spot, looking at leases and spaces. I connected with Will through Carrie and you know
Josh Sharkey (15:36.546)like
Ming-Tai Huh (15:38.072)Two weeks of like real rapid can we do we get along? Who are you? What is your background? Can can we trust each other? And Will is still my partner today. we kind of hit it off with a bang and
Ming-Tai Huh (15:58.158)No, I I think what I was looking for, and think of it as like I don't know anything about restaurants. I what I was looking for is probably the thing that I that I don't want. You know, I was looking for the antithesis of what I don't want, which is people don't want a you know, super senior veteran who smokes all the time is gonna tell me, you know that This is how it works. I don't know. Sure, this is how it works or
You know, like go s go stay in your lane. You know, I kinda I was like, I need a peer here, just like I would be searching for a peer on the tech side, you know? And Will is like around my age. and so it was a younger guy and he he like knew about social media, had a social presence, really great with with with media in general, like being on the cover of like Boston magazine. so I was like, Okay, so good communicator, like someone who who's got
you a little bit of ethos around him. Like this this could be the right shaft for me. and then and it was.
Josh Sharkey (17:02.686)So I wanna maybe just fast forward a bit and then we'll kinda go back. In addition to running Cambridge Street Hospitality, you were at square block, however you Yeah. Square. From what I understand from the outside in it looks like they're trying to they or at least they were they were trying to heavily saturate the the food tech space, restaurants, with their platform which 'cause they were they were historically always
servicing you know, SMBs but not really restaurants and they were kind of getting trying to get into the food space. I I imagine that's why they brought you in. I'd love to hear, you know, how that went, why you left Toast to go to Square and you know, biggest takeaways, but then also, you know, what happened at the end.
Ming-Tai Huh (17:44.504)Yeah, absolutely. I didn't actually go from Toast to to Square. I left nine months after the ITO and left to join a startup in the mortgage technology space. I find like another interesting problem, real estate and mortgage and homeownership and and that was a place that I thought I was gonna kinda you know, do what Toast did for for for restaurants, but kind of do it for homeowners on how they manage their properties and their mortgage. Anyway, the short story there is like
At a very difficult time in mortgages when interest rates almost triple and it put a ton of pressure on the industry. And you know, I find myself looking for another role. And what it taught me though is like, you know, I don't really like being this far from my restaurants. In that role that I I took in the mortgage company, was in twenty twenty two. I had hired a director of operations. previously, here's the group didn't have one, and that's Jared Sadoyan.
who's also MIT grad and also was a bartender at Craig Yan May. So our connection runs runs deep there. So I had someone that I said, okay, this is how I can trust this person in fulfilling the role at the company on the day to day basis, while I go venture on something different and new. But it certainly like took me away from the symbiotic relationship that I've had for many many years of toast, which was like I have a restaurant
I have problems in the restaurant. They're very similar to thousands of other restaurants. Now take this unique perspective and apply it to build a great product at Toast. that was a really, I think, great vantage point for me. And I wanted to find a trying to find a place where I could do that again.
Josh Sharkey (19:29.314)Yeah, maybe before we get to Square, 'cause you you know, seven years with Toast, was it like a full time job with Toast a as well as d the restaurant group or like and and what was the how did that manifest itself? Like was it like you go to the office every day and you're working on product with them or like like what is that like? 'Cause I know that they w they do work with a lot of restaurant operators from a more s social aspect of sort of like promulgating what they're doing and, you know, being a megaphone for them and things like that, but this seems different, like like you were actually like in the weeds with them building.
Ming-Tai Huh (19:59.692)Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. I explained my my role at the restaurant. I'm I'm sort of the the back office guy, like literally at Puritan. There's a there's an office in the basement and in a hundred year old building. built by the way by a bakery in the thirties, twenties and thirties that was called the Puritan Cake Company. And that is how we got our name, Puritan and Company.
That took some digging actually in the historical commission's files to actually figure that one out. We actually had a different name and it was somewhat similar to another restaurant that was also opening, and they didn't like that. And so we changed our name.
Josh Sharkey (20:41.23)What was the name? What was the original name?
Ming-Tai Huh (20:43.192)Original name was Bridge Street.
Josh Sharkey (20:45.07)Sounds like yeah.
Josh Sharkey (20:49.038)Ha ha ha.
Ming-Tai Huh (20:50.962)That is honestly the reaction that I get often. You did a better you did a better job there of picking me. So yeah, so back off is so you know, basically managing from the from finance perspective and honestly like just like learning about the business. I I wouldn't say that the team didn't want me involved, but like I certainly didn't participate in service when service was running. but vendor negotiation, tech, etcetera, the IT guy.
Josh Sharkey (20:53.55)Obvious.
Ming-Tai Huh (21:19.66)I wore all of those hats and and sure enough, have definitely come to the restaurant in the middle of the night to fix a problem with the point of seal system in the past. so I've I've I've felt those problems, but as far as guest facing, that's not my role at the business.
Josh Sharkey (21:36.6)So what was the role of toast? You know, before we get to Square, like what what were you what were you doing specifically at Toast?
Ming-Tai Huh (21:41.944)Yeah, well there's a long history of my my time at Toast. I caught like three chapters in the very beginning, when Toast had less than five hundred restaurants. I was the individual contributor, product manager who owned the consumer suite. Wasn't even called that back then. this means online ordering, loyalty, gift cards, those products. I basically built the first versions of those with my engineering team.
And so if you use TOAS and you and you like those products, I'm glad if you don't, you can blame me for some of the the early day work on there. But also I was responsible for the partnership business at TOAS, which means I I technically worked on building APIs so that we can open the platform to you know inventory tools, bookkeeping tools, powerline ordering tools, you name it. And this is really
important for Toast in its early days for them to grow into multi-unit. you know, there were some groups using Toast back in in 20 15. This is 2015, 2016. but you know, what often came to bear was that some of the like the larger businesses had, you know, a a tech stack that they invested heavily into and and it was you know sort of best degree tools connecting to NCR Aloha
machines, processing grind files. and so like toast had to have some sort of version of that in order to win those businesses. And these were more often like the larger, higher volume, more successful businesses. And so, you know, I I built the data platform, the API data platform for Toast. But then I also managed the commercial side of it, which was
How do we choose these partners? How do we work with these partners? And and how do we make sure we we build like the best ecosystem around Toast?
Josh Sharkey (23:44.942)Gotcha. So you were doing product management, sort of to literally like designing what the tools would be for consumers, partnerships, API integration. So when you say like like were you coding the this or are you just sort of specing what APIs needed to happen and making sure that they they got built?
Ming-Tai Huh (24:01.166)Absolutely. specing, I think is one way to call it. Like, you know, d ultimately determining what we build. Like should we should this be a read only service? Should this be a two way bi bi directional service? You know, what information is really necessary that is going to be used by the partner in order to build their tools. Right. And so, you know, I spent time in Crunchheim's office. You know, actually that was one of my earliest partners. And I got totally like
school than the crash course of what's important to a back office in crunch time. You know, I never used the product as as a business, but you know, I learned a lot from that that team early on on, you know, managing, you know, recipes, cogs, and and labor. You know, I then took that in turn and and really built some amazing partnerships with a company like Seven Shift, for instance. Jordan and I have spent Jordan's CEO, Jordan Bush, you know, we spent a lot of time on calls, spiking out
host labor service in order to make sure that they could build a really amazing integration. and this is back when seven shift had less than maybe I don't know, less than a couple thousand customers a couple in restaurants and we built something amazing and I think it really kind of showed how successful that partnership was over time.
Michael Jacober (25:16.76)Partnership was very successful from what I recall. I remember hearing a statistic saying that I think Toast shuttled 70% of Seven Shift customers at at one point. Does that sound roughly accurate? And then can you talk a little about like what happened with that? Because I would imagine that would have been a very natural act well acquisition target. Then they bought Sling. But I would imagine I'd imagine the first, you know, the the first partner.
Josh Sharkey (25:36.75)Mm.
Michael Jacober (25:45.4)To acquire that would have been would have been seven shifts. What what happened there? Can you talk a little about that?
Ming-Tai Huh (25:49.868)Yeah, absolutely. I think for sure the partnership angle is a great way to decide how you're gonna acquire companies. One, in partnerships you learn how to really make them successful and you learn about those businesses. And you're right, you kind of as as a platform you decide do I wanna enter that business myself, potentially alienating my partners, or you know, do I want to continue being the platform that kind of helps and and feeds everybody? In the case of Toast and and Semchus, I know.
I think subshift was not really presidial at that time. but I think what was more and more important was that Tos realized that the labor side of the equation of a restaurant's P and L needed to be served better. And so entering payroll, really payroll, was was more of like the strategic decision that that TOS made in the eighteen time frame. I get that right. It might be off for about a year.
And that was with partnership with a company called Stratix out of Chicago, that then became Coast Payroll. So it wasn't really scheduling per se, was really kind of the drive there. It was really about how to get into one of the more nitty gritty hard parts of the restaurant business, which is payroll. Mm-hmm.
Josh Sharkey (27:02.274)That makes sense. So you were at Toast, you were doing product APIs, partnerships. What was what was the third bucket?
Ming-Tai Huh (27:10.402)Yeah, third bucket was come being back in in in product, because my partnership's role was a go-to-market role, working for Amanda Ray, who's who's now CEO, co-founder. And back in the product, I I ran the platform organization. And so this is kind of like the underpinning fundamentals of TOAS. And so the product lead working with a very large engineering organization, larger than you know, other parts of the business that might have more product managers.
it's a very technical side of the business. So it's where our architects spend a lot of time and put in giving examples like TOAS is very much built around this concept of an order. And an order has a many different components, it has payments, it has a consumer, it has items, it has modifiers and like all that structure and how it lives over the life of an order, especially for full service. There's a lot of things that happen over the course of a two hour and a half hour dinner. how do you make sure that the performance of that data model
is at its highest, basically. When you think about the millions of millions of restaurants that rely on transactions to happen very quickly, or that rely on transactions to be malleable over the course of a long period of time, you know, which which equates to to full service. and how do you like scale that constantly? And and it was pretty hard in the early days in TOAS because it was just growing so fast.
more and more databases, more and more time that you have to put into AWS cloud investments to really make sure that the reliability was there. so the platform organization is very much kind of like behind the scenes of how do I make the POS do as best as possible, how do I make the payment system as best as possible? How do I help restaurants manage their businesses and their hierarchies appropriately? So you could definitely bore a lot of people with this topic, but
When you're a restaurant, when you're a restaurant group and you have like twenty thir fifty locations, you know how they're set up, their legal entities, like whether groups of like how do I want to see that data arranged, like who owns what, yeah, because because it's a payment company, you have to make sure you stay in compliance. All of that structure ultimately manifests itself in the product in some way that the operators now have to live with.
Ming-Tai Huh (29:35.768)You if you're a franchisee and you only have like twenty five of those a hundred restaurants, you have to make sure that the data model can flex in order to support those needs. You know, some people might call this like building for the enterprise. but a lot of the platform basically is it's it's gotta be able to support those flexible business models. Otherwise, they're kind of like non starters.
Josh Sharkey (29:59.128)What was the impetus for leaving Toast? Obviously you were there for quite a while. W you feel like your your job was done? Did they sort of had what they needed to kind of get the foothold and and you wanted to move on? Or like what was the you know, what was the catalyst there?
Ming-Tai Huh (30:12.574)Good question. I think there was a little bit of nine nine months after the IPO had left, and you know, I kind of felt like, wow, this is great. This is an amazing ride. there's certainly more that could happen here. I really admire the the building phase, you know, especially early days. And you know, if I could find another business like Toast, where I can apply
all this like seven years of toast knowledge of how to scale, you know, that'd be a great place to go. And and obviously, you know, be successful and and you know, make a bunch of money. That'd be great. And so that was sort of the thinking of why I I left Toast.
Josh Sharkey (30:58.614)And how many how many Maseratis did you buy post IPO? Was it just two or did you want to like split it up and and make sure like once a year you get one?
Ming-Tai Huh (31:07.8)I'll one up you on that. I at the time, not not today, but at the time I was had no car. So no car.
Michael Jacober (31:14.648)Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (31:15.006)Well, hold on, you're in Boston. Did you need a car? Was it by design?
Ming-Tai Huh (31:20.952)Just yeah, I I got I have an electric bike with I don't know, like three thousand miles on it or something. I used it. I don't know. Well yeah, this this one did it what it was basically my car.
Josh Sharkey (31:28.746)Crack miles? That's cool. I didn't know that. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (31:34.221)Makes sense.
Michael Jacober (31:34.7)Was there a lock up period for you? is that and ultimately what forced you to leave after nine months? Did you unlock, you know, a fair amount of stock that you were able to sell and turn into cash or or you know, do you still have stock in the business today? What was the what was the geez? What was the impetus to to piece out after after nine months as opposed to stick around?
Ming-Tai Huh (31:57.474)Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think Toast had had a pretty standard lock up period for employees, which was six months after after the IPO. You know, nine months for me, you know, was just more of a confluence of I think I'm ready to make that next step in my my career. Yeah. And also, you know, ready to kind of maybe, you know, jump on another rocket ship that can do really great things. that was sort of the thinking behind that.
You know, clearly that didn't work for me, but it was it was a wrist notes that I would I'd probably still do, you know? Yeah. But yeah, I think it was it was great for me for short. It's changed my life, you know, and and the work that I did for Toast. And you know, I'd say no, today I I don't own a a single share of Toast.
Josh Sharkey (32:47.586)Well, you know, then you went to Square. So that's true. So Square was the next potential rocket ship. And I mean obviously I I hear you say, you know, maybe it didn't work out, but I'm sure there was a lot which I'd love to hear about like what what you were building, what you were doing there. I know you were working on, you know, I think handhelds I think was one of the projects. But what was your time like at Square?
Ming-Tai Huh (33:09.678)Yeah, my time at Square was was great. I mean it was a phenomenal run. I mean it ended up you know you know abruptly for me. but I think Square you know, I actually I'll go to like the hiring requirements. Square was looking for a new leader for the Square for Restaurants business who obviously could build product at the scale of s of Square, work with technical teams.
have a ton of taste. Like Squares really big on design and simplicity and they they crush it in there. But one of the additional requirements was extreme knowledge of the domain. Like somebody who really knew restaurants in and out. And that made that role pretty hard to hire. Or I should say it it made it more selective. and so that role was actually empty for nine months. and
I think someone else who has dead a guest on your site, on your podcast is Brian Soler. Brian Soler used to have that. Brian Solar now is chief project officer at HeadSpot On. I took that role in June of 2023. And you know, before I did, actually one of the calls I made was to Brian. And I said, Hey, you know, I I might be serious about, you know, taking this role here at Square. I've been looking for someone who understands restaurants deeply, someone who has built
software at scale and and and it is available. and the reason why I reached out to Brian over text was that he used to have that role and he could give me sort of some elements around the climate and the opportunities. but the reason why I have Brian Solar's cell phone number is that Brian, right after he graduated from college, a couple of years after, he lived in my building in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
And I say my building, as in like Brian Soler was my tenant. He and three and and two other guys were renting an apartment. this is before he got into food tech, he was in consulting. And you know, talk about like small world of confluence. He was definitely in upstairs, like literally upstairs in the building.
Josh Sharkey (35:27.564)This show is
Ming-Tai Huh (35:29.818)And we knew each other like socially and we 'cause we lived in the same building and we had parties. This is before I was married in all the world.
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Ming-Tai Huh (36:34.4)But you know, you know, he had some really had good things to say about Squares Opportunity. You know, they were definitely very well positioned in down market, like the farmers market's like an unbeatable solution in the space. Amazing value for soul proper soul props. you know in the real
Josh Sharkey (36:52.012)I re I remember those little things they gave, you know. It was like such a brilliant thing that was just coming to
Michael Jacober (36:54.99)That was incredible.
You put it in the headphone, Jack.
Josh Sharkey (37:00.718)They'll just hand him out like candy. Like the the the the little readers. Yeah.
Ming-Tai Huh (37:03.95)Yeah, they were given a away at Apple stores, like, you know, that whole motion of how do we enable payments for all where I do that.
Michael Jacober (37:17.442)Yeah, it's incredible.
Ming-Tai Huh (37:19.342)The the phase of that I joined was a phase of how do we take that that magic and that experience and build it for larger, larger operators that have more complex systems. you know, a lot a lot of people aren't running fifteen million dollar, ten million, maybe I picked a big too big of a number. Let's just go with the ten mil two million dollar AUD restaurant off of a single iPhone. You know, they need terminals, they need handhelds, they need
printers, KDS, and they need capabilities to manage not only the guest experience but also the staff experience. and so moving up market is what what what square would say, was really an important strategic imperative for the company. And I was responsible for the food and beverage side of that. Mm.
Josh Sharkey (38:12.578)So what was your what was the mandate? Like what was the you know, what was like sort of sort of the time horizon and what w what was the product suite that you guys felt that was needed to to build that?
Ming-Tai Huh (38:22.168)Yeah, good question. Well, the mandate was grow. So let's let's grow the business, you know, faster than it's currently growing.
Josh Sharkey (38:29.902)Was that your KPI? Just new logos or revenues that sort of how they measured your success?
Ming-Tai Huh (38:35.18)Yeah, so Square reports on on a metric called gross profit, which means it's net payments plus plus SaaS, and for all intents and purposes, it's revenue. And the growth of it is like how much are we adding every year? And and how can we make sure that that number is consistent of a high growth company? A high growth company would be, you know, above 20, above 30%.
versus maybe like a mature company that has lower margins or high margins, but less growth. And so Square definitely wants to be a high growth and all in a high margin company. And during the COVID, it absolutely was in a lot of ways because of the toolkit and services that they offered were things that merchants actually call them sellers. Sellers is the same for a restaurant, a cafe, a spa.
a barbershop, you name it. So sellers of all types, growth of their payment volume stream is is how the business was being measured on and and ultimately how I was being measured on.
Josh Sharkey (39:40.022)If you could just sort of summarize, you know, you know, during your time there, what did what did you build and and then what did you you know, what were your takeaways? And then we'll get into the what ha what happened when they decided to to cut.
Ming-Tai Huh (39:51.608)Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's definitely some work in flight before I showed up, so I won't take I'm not gonna take, you know, all of the credit. And certainly wouldn't take all the credit anyway. You I had a hundred to fifty person team and the goal was to, you know, build the the next generation of Square. in fact we call should call it next generation, for a while. And it was a modern point of sale that had a lot of the underpinning benefits of of Square, like the payments, etcetera.
But really kind of rethinking the point of sale for speed of service, the ability to manage orders in a way that full service or orders that take place over a long period of time, and ultimately kind of unifying that on a a single black platform or single back end, of which the company has gone through multiple iterations of over time, but putting it all together so that all the products would more work more seamlessly together.
And so a lot of my time was to ship the next generation point of sale and make sure that it wasn't just a like a skin copy of the old thing, like it truly was different and rethought around how do we improve the restaurant and the operator's experience. And so that's those are the things that we spent a lot of time on. It also included integrations with third party marketplaces, rebook Uber.
Fordash included integrations with reservation systems, open table, seven rooms, Resi. And so, you know, I like to think is my tenure there, we really put Square in the place where the million dollar plus restaurant would say, Absolutely, that's a product now that I'm I want to buy. And and I think we achieved that.
Josh Sharkey (41:47.542)Let's talk about Dorsey's decision and what what happened. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know how much vantage you actually have, but obviously they went from ten thousand to six thousand employees overnight. His positioning was that AI was moving faster than he had planned, or maybe not than he had planned, but you know, AI was moving fast and he felt that this was the right decision for the company, cut forty percent of people. It's a little bit sort of counterintuitive to some of the things that they wanted to accomplish, like
saturate the restaurant technology market given majority of that team or maybe all of that team is dissolved. what happened?
Michael Jacober (42:25.858)Yeah. Well, on on top of that, do you think that this was truly an AI led decision? you know, from my understanding, a lot of companies, specifically tech businesses back during COVID, went on a hiring frenzy across all departments. And it's a wonderful excuse to be able to downsize your teams right now to say, you know, it's AI, when in fact it could just be as simple as we overhired and now it's time to
trim some of those decisions that we made.
Ming-Tai Huh (42:57.71)I think you know, not only the announcements that were made on February twenty sixth, in and then subsequent statements, you know, by by Block have been about the business, you know, over hiring COVID, you know, and at its peak. or should say even when I was there, it was like thirteen and a half thousand employees. And so
Certainly there were a lot of people at the company and then Cash App, which is let's just call it half the business. That's not probably the right number, but N Square, another half, you know. They were kind of basically two separate companies. So there's a lot of truth. And I I definitely believe it that, you know, there's like redundancy across, you know, those those business units because they were kind of these basically they were being treated as two separate companies, even though they were at the same same board. Yeah, and then the company has been
changing and restructuring in order to create more synergies between those two experiences. because you know, if you're an outsider and you ask like, well, what's the differentiation of Square? Even I've been trained, you know, to before I even joined to say like, well, they have both the business, the operator, and they have the consumer, with Cash App. which is, you know, phenomenal business. You know, fourth largest debit card in the country.
you know, almost sixty million monthly IT uniques. It's like it's really, really amazing business. But how it like worked with Square was pretty minimal. Fast forward to decisions, I think Jack truly envisioned that these companies were not two companies and that they needed to be one. And of course I was, you know, let go and many others that day. I think what you know the takeaway here is that AI definitely is a part of the story.
even my teams. It's not like we were not AI forward and thinking we were building, you know, faster than ever the things that operators needed. Mm-hmm. You know, you can ask even our customers about it, they're like super pumped excited, especially longtime customers. We've been with Square for like fifteen plus ten plus years. And you know, we I could be messages or even like we're talking to them live, you know, saying,
Ming-Tai Huh (45:20.866)Hey, like this feels like the old days, like things are going really fast now. You know, and part of that was I think we were building the right things. I'll take credit, you know, for that. but then also we were we were we had tools that teams were using in order to to move faster and sort of, you know, overcome some of the challenges of of building a system a bunch of different ways. You know, like a story I like to tell about Square is that
You know, it was such a pioneer in this space that you wouldn't build Square like the way it was built. You know, you would you would go straight to the cloud, you would then use PCI compliant data centers, you would you would manage your data in certain ways and and Amazon has all this out of the box. Well, that didn't exist when st when Square started. So Square built a lot of things that you kind of really don't need today. And
And ultimately the evolution of them moving towards next generation, et cetera, was was evolving themselves and and then that ultimately creates a better product and a better experience for customers. You know, I won't mention the exact metrics, but next gen, like new point of sale, square for restaurants, it's a an amazing product compared to the legacy product. Like quality wise, reliability wise, and it really stands toe to toe.
With the other players in the space.
Michael Jacober (46:49.698)Yeah, it is a it's a great product.
Josh Sharkey (46:51.884)Yeah, and I I I I agree. w what who's running it now?
Michael Jacober (46:57.016)No, I don't know.
Ming-Tai Huh (46:58.042)actually. I don't know. You know, that's that's for sure, but and by the way I use the product. Like I'm a customer of my own product, is it? Yeah. Three of my concepts. I saw a little toast in my full service restaurants and you know, I think it would be just a matter of time for us to make that make that transition. You know, still you know very much pro square in that I think what it was doing and where what the path it was on, you know, from
Michael Jacober (47:00.43)Not your problem. Now you're no longer your baby.
Ming-Tai Huh (47:26.712)from when I left was the path that was operator centric.
Josh Sharkey (47:31.0)What do see as the big delta between square and toast and why someone leaves toast to go to square? In your eyes, what is it?
Ming-Tai Huh (47:38.978)Yeah, that's good question. Well, I think the breadth of products, let's just call it like what value Square offers versus Toast offers. There's more on the Square side. and and Toast is continually to build other things as well. You know, I think just last week they just launched credit cards, for instance. but Square has been in the financial as a bank has been offering capabilities like this, you know, for some time already. so
I would say one of the big things that happened when I was there, and I I would definitely not take credit for this, was Square changed its pricing model, which is more like a flat cost rate Holly Teneat, doesn't charge you for like multiple handhelds and multiple US stations. It's just like a very super restaurant centric pricing model. And so, you know, look, as operators we're looking for every penny that we can. I think Squares value prop.
to to restaurants in that perspective is we're the best value that is on the market. You get a compelling product. Maybe it doesn't have every single bell and whistle, but it's definitely going to save you money. And that's a really compelling positioning with the restaurant industry.
Josh Sharkey (48:53.614)So you're back office guy, self proclaimed. Let's talk a little bit about the the the restaurant tech stack and your thoughts on well, I don't want to lead the witness too too much, but you know, and I and I put a couple of notes in there, obviously, but like are we going the route of consolidation and everything is going to be consolidation? Is there this all in one play? There are some new folks coming out that are trying to basically do it all, and AI is helping them move faster.
is point solutions still important for, you know, some some part of the market? What is gonna be obsolete soon? I I kinda want it all from you 'cause you're you obviously you're so deep in the space. I just want to hear like how you think about this.
Ming-Tai Huh (49:33.196)I'll just lead with like, I don't know. because there's a lot of optionality at play now, more so than there was 12 months ago. Like, you can build serious technology for your restaurant group with the tools that are easily available to you. and you know, if you are a restaurant that
You kind of knew your way around Excel. And then that became Google Sheets. And you know, you built some like some some workflow processes of of you know how you're managing maybe like your invoices or time cards or something like that. And and you've kind of like, you know, Jerry Jerry rig something. Like you're definitely gonna use these tools and you're gonna like make those processes better. You're gonna help make them more accurate, you're gonna make them faster, probably gonna automate them entirely. you know, for the restaurant out there, that's like, well.
I don't know any of that. I don't see them necessarily making the jump straight to like I'm gonna go build something. Now they might not have to though. You know, because I think we're gonna see an economy of like, okay, well, let's get some AI builders and some supporters. Like just like you hire a plumber, you're gonna hire an AI person and they're like, Hey, go help me with my business. Like, you all the ins and outs of automate this for me. You know, so I'm I I think the the welcome consulting gigs are gonna still continue.
Josh Sharkey (50:58.254)I agree. I think they're actually Mike and I have been talking a lot about SaaS switching from software as a service to service as a software and the idea that, you know, service is actually more important than ever now because you can't you know, you can build anything. And to your point, I I agree. I think there's a lot of folks that either can't or they just don't have the resources to and and probably shouldn't, but you know, for a fraction of what they're spending on a a number of disparate, you know
Solutions that that are not bespoke to their precise needs. They're kind of like acquiescing to whatever kind of product they can you know they can get for the price that they can afford. They could probably pay one fourth that to a service that can help build them exactly what they need and shed a lot of their stack.
Ming-Tai Huh (51:46.19)Look look, I think restaurants we are we're so good at buying things. Like we we like like excuse excuse the gender, but like we have a guy for everything in the restaurant space. Like we just have tons of them. And the next new one is gonna be the AI guy, the AI person. And they're gonna help restaurants and they're gonna get better results than they have in the past. Now of course AI kinda use in this way, this phrasing, but
It'll be embedded in the existing tools. Toast has AI AI capabilities in it. Everyone's gonna have AI components within it. My you know, event software, perfect venue, has AI capabilities in it. I love it. And so, you know, there's that trend is here to stay and going on. That doesn't mean though that all of a sudden Air Was this are just building everything. I think we're still kind of gonna run as my operator had on.
still gonna run our businesses like a service model where we expect to pay for something and to get something in return. And but that thing in return is going to be actually more powerful than it and it has been in the past because of AI. You know, when I think about, you know, my former employers, Both and Square, I think that they'll continue on the all in one platform angle. Like why not? You have a lot of the data, you have the system record in a lot of ways of different different components in what in some ways like
the more information that you have in one place, now the better analysis, the better outcomes that you can kind of drive towards. Because the the flaw to best of read, I think I think we probably people know is like, yeah, they solved like that one or two things or those 12 individually things like extremely well. But then when you had to combine like four of those together to get a posed answer for something.
It became super hard and then it became a meta problem of, well, I'm trying to compensate for this and that and I this doesn't work for there and I've got some now I've invented some new math. and it's just not very straightforward. You know, especially at the the multi unit corporate, you know, chain level. You know, I see there's some value to having like all your pieces in one place. Now with that said, I'm a partnerships API developer platform type person and
Ming-Tai Huh (54:13.09)You know, what I'm building for my own restaurant group as we speak is my own restaurant agent. And this restaurant agent is basically me, but it has infinite time and infinite capacity to read e every single, you know, message on my platform, read every email that comes from the systems, the point of soul system. and that's either by API or by email. A lot of a lot of restaurant business is still done email, in my opinion.
And then like pull all that together and then actually come up with great insights about what actually needs to be done next, what actually is a real problem for the business. And the beauty of this is I get to train it the way that I think. And I'll get results back that are more like me thinking about how to assess the business. And in you know, with the ask operators most the time, like
What would they want? What what do they need? They need more hours in the day, they need more time. And so, you know, me having like this supercomputer working for me nonstop is giving me that time back and now I can focus on things I really
Michael Jacober (55:23.534)I wanna double click on that a little bit, just cause agents to me are super interesting. I think the way I sort of think about legacy technology, I know you mentioned, you know, Toast has AI embedded in it now, and your event software has AI embedded in now. I'd love to get your thoughts on, you know, these these products have AI embedded in them because they still have spent millions and millions of dollars on building this whole application layer. so essentially as a SaaS model, we're renting, you know.
Toast code base for a monthly fee. If we think about what an application is, it's a data source, there's an application layer with functions and API calls, and then there's client, and your front-end client is what your user is interacting with. If you take away the client needing to actually click the buttons, I guess the question is, what's the application layer for? If it can be replaced with an agent who all they need is a data source. So what's your thought on
you know, I guess SAS pocalypse right now. I in what I just said, which is you're building it. You know that an agent is making decisions based on, you know, how you're training it. Why do you need an application anymore? And what do you think happens?
Ming-Tai Huh (56:38.926)That's definitely a good question. Let's think about that. for someone like me, who is you know owner of a business, and like other owners, like we have sort of all access to everything. So in a lot of ways, like we're the perfect candidate for wanting to have an agent because like we just have access to tons of information and we need our help and processing it, etc. And we don't wanna.
click on buttons, we kind of just we just need the results or we need the data sources. I'm a definite believer in, you know, system of action. Is this the way things are going? You know, SAS though, there is value to it. Not everybody knows how to use like the command line to interact with an agent. you know, maybe you could say, okay, that's just iMessage or that's just a slide prompt.
Michael Jacober (57:31.426)Imagine your your agent is accessible via multiple tools. Yeah. Yeah. Not just a C L I. Yeah.
Ming-Tai Huh (57:36.718)But what output I want from my agent or how I want others to interact with it is most likely different than the way I'm going to interact with it. A lot of the value that I want is that I want to be able to become a better operator myself so that I can make my employees' jobs easier. And that doesn't mean that I meet them, you know, booting out Cloud, you know, on their laptops, you know, because they're not, they're like laptops that work.
They're on the line, right? But I I I need to have interfaces for them to engage and interact with this technology. And I I could I could argue like either I built a or I pay somebody the SAS for that. Or maybe I I have a different tiered model where it's all based on outcome and and actions and have some sort of some sort of like tier token model.
Josh Sharkey (58:27.374)Where I would push back there on like w apps being obsolete is there's there's certainly like, you know, a a case to be made for all of the headless applications and those are happening now. I totally agree. Like the system of action is you know, a i this is kind of a new term people are talking about anyway. Yeah. Where things are actually happening, where it's not just data that you want to analyze, but there's something, you know, there's some UI that's or some interaction that's happening, but you
You know, you you're not gonna be to get rid of everything because there's some things that we need to interact with, whether that's a KDS screen because you're you know, you're bumping an order and you need to be able to see those things. That you know, there's an application that you have to you're gonna have to have that. There's not a reason to to deprecate that. Whether it's you know, I'm my my book obviously is like you have to look at a recipe or you have to a customer needs to actually see the menu items and you know, that that doesn't go away. So I do think that there's there's gonna be some level of tech that is not gonna be obsolete because you're you're using it every day and if you're
Interacting with it then that
Michael Jacober (59:27.512)If there's a if there's a required interface for a you know for a line level team member, it's probably probably gonna be
Josh Sharkey (59:34.446)I'd be curious what I mean because you're building now, and I do think, you know, I've I've seen, and we know some of the same people that are doing this, like seen restaurant operators that are building some pretty impressive things. Well yeah. I think that where I worry for them, and I didn't know this five years ago, I only know it now from you know getting stuck with it in tech, is the semblance of like security and performance at scale and multi tenant use of, you know, who has access to what. And I feel like
Building that a restaurant building that, let's say that say that like to your point, you're the owner. You see everything. You don't need to design an architecture that like filters out certain information that you don't want to see. You certainly don't want your line cooks to be able to ask a question and learn what you're you know, what you're taking home, you know, or what things like that. And you have to design for that. And then if you have a thousand line cooks, you know, or server staff, you know, interacting, making API calls on your app that you built, you might
Fresh. You know, you have to understand, you know, site architecture and things like that. I'm I'm curious what your thoughts are on where the limit is right now for what people can build and if that limit will just, you know, continue to sort the ceiling will continue to kind of go up where they'll just keep being able to build build more.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:00:50.818)Yeah, I think that maybe would I agree with what a lot what you just said around you know going from one to one, like AI agent help to one to many. And that step is a big step for you know, sole providers slash business owners. Like you in the beginning of of building something, I doubt that you're like, Hey, I really want to solve the problem for like millions of restaurants. I think you're probably starting off with
I need to solve this problem for my restaurant tomorrow. Now you have tools to do it, which is great.
Josh Sharkey (01:01:25.966)I mean even if like let's just say I have ten restaurants, you know, and and I have you know so I have ten restaurants and I have five hundred employees, you know, I think that might be like is the juice worth the squeeze for them to build something that's you know, where there's different levels of permission and architecture and multi tenant, like do you feel like that's something that that restaurants will be able to to build themselves right now?
Ming-Tai Huh (01:01:49.176)was gonna say something and then you put on those last two words, which is I think really important right now. Things are moving so fast in this space that, you know, I would call it, you know, the early days of of dot com, even AOL, like the internet, I have like this vivid memory of me buying a palm pilot off of an AOL bulletin board and being scammed out of my heart earned
$60. I I remember this vividly because like just quick quick aside. Like back in the day, you would like message somebody and be like, hey, I have this thing and I'm selling it. It's a lifting. And then, I want to buy it. And it's like, give me your address and I'll mail you a money order that is cash. And then you will then send the thing back to me. So you know it was right with fraud, as you can imagine, because there was like no trust. And like this is why PayPal was so successful. Finally created some
accountability and some risk protections in the in the exchange of goods online. Password to today, like, there's all kinds of things that can go wrong to you building your software. This the sky is actually the limit, and so is the risk. And that's the challenge and the problem with doing it yourself. Whereas let's just say defending maybe the SaaS industry, the SaaS is
how you take risk off the table because now someone else is accountable to the result. You can still hopefully get all the the value and the benefits, but now you don't have to worry about those things. So if something goes wrong and, you know, like I pay somebody incorrectly or blah blah blah. And then like if you're doing it yourself, guess what? SOL. S you you're paying somebody $300 a month or something, you know, you call them and then they take care of you.
Josh Sharkey (01:03:44.642)So is there a part of the restaurant space that you think is still kind of white space that no one is solving for yet?
Ming-Tai Huh (01:03:53.846)It probably depends on time frame. You know, you could you can guess a I'm twenty years in advance and I've got you know, humanoid AI agents in physical form serving at restaurants. Yeah, you know, like that's a long ways away, but it's it's probably in our future, just based on like the structure where things are going and how much science fiction I've read in my life. I think what's still surprising to me
is around like supply chain procurement, like just that side of the world. and I and I'm great vendors. I work with phenomenal vendors. But it it just seems still super archaic on how it works with how much I pay for something from this distributor versus this vendor. How does it change over time? How do I track it? How does ultimately impact my business when I actually use those ingredients for my recipes and put out a plate.
but I'm expecting to make this much margin or not this much margin. That whole loop to me is a credit to the companies in the space, the margin that just the me's of the world, right? Like you're doing amazing things. It's still sort of like a crazy, I think, old school experience of how you buy supply in the restaurant space.
Josh Sharkey (01:05:14.158)So what is the eleven star experience there that you point?
Michael Jacober (01:05:17.326)Is it basically like eliminate the distributor through some sort of buying collective that is in theory a cooperative that, you know, pays for and manages the the warehouse and the drivers? How would you try to solve that problem in a
Ming-Tai Huh (01:05:33.038)See, taking a look at this, I feel like you know, one of one of the bigger issues, and even for a restaurant group of my size, like, which I think someone told me I'm the largest independent restaurant group in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Yeah, great. it's still pretty kind of like word of mouth who you know and and relationships matter in in the restaurant business. That will never, I think, change. I hope it doesn't change. But there's occasion where you don't know necessarily what
good is, what a good price is, what what good service is. Take my like my my my rational ovens, you know, they they break hero all the time and you know we have a good technician and then when that person retires you're kind of like well I don't know what to do. I don't know what to call I used to call Tom and I think that restaurants should be able to say like hey I need this I have this problem and publish it if people bid on it.
And the way you bid on it is through a structured way that actually shows if you're a good business, your reviews, et cetera, et cetera. And I think much more of the restaurant business should be more catered towards
Michael Jacober (01:06:44.378)Talking about upwork, right? It's like and then you need you have you have a reputation score, you have some kind of credit worthiness to allow the consumer to to choose you. Is that kind of what you're what you're getting at?
Ming-Tai Huh (01:06:55.458)Yeah, or you sometimes a restaurant will go through phases of like it it feels like it's it's working and don't mess with it. You know, just work on on on the things that are really on fire. And those are the problems that creep up on you later on. You're like, wait a second, I should have renegotiated that deal six months ago and I would have saved fifty thousand dollars or whatever. And it's sort of like, you know, now like AI is gonna be like hopefully
continuously optimizing, helping you optimize your business where you wouldn't have time otherwise. But you can't really do it without having enough supply chain and supply on the side of the demand being the restaurant. So I hope someone solves it in such a way that, you know, I feel like there's not just like two HVAC companies in in the state of Massachusetts.
Josh Sharkey (01:07:43.65)There's a woman named Brianne Harvey who she was on our podcast and I I've known her for many years now because she we met her through I think Jose Andre's group and she has a couple consulting I think she well she has a consulting business and then she started this thing called restaurant resource, which is I believe trying to solve this. It's funny because I thought you were going a different direction because I remember when I first, you know, opened my f my first restaurant, I was like, Well, where do I get carding from?
I need carting. Got it. Where does that who do I call? What's which carting company? What is the cost that makes sense? Is this are they overcharging me? And you know, I need in sh you know, I need insurance. I need, you know, all these things that like one, you don't even know you don't know what you don't know. And then two, you don't know what baseline. even to you know, independent of like finding and bidding on different things, just I I I can't tell you how many times I'm sure both of you have gotten this as well, where someone's like, Hey, I'm opening a restaurant.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:08:29.633)Yes.
Josh Sharkey (01:08:41.006)Do you have like a performa you could send me with all the expenses I should know about? Do you ever get you I know you guys get that question, but I get it all the time. And and they're like, you know, they just don't know. They don't know. You you know you need carting, right? That's a thing that you need. Like, okay, cool. What else? And it's understandable by the way, 'cause you would you just don't know. And and there are a lot of those things that you're like, yeah, I need exterminator. God, I need that thing too. And who do I call? Which
Ming-Tai Huh (01:09:06.069)disparity of information between experienced operators, you know, at the top of their game and the new entrance is just so massive. It's massive. It's so massive. And like I I love restaurants. I mean, I've been on both sides of the selling things to them and and being one of them. And but holy cow, if I look at that Ming, like I told you, didn't know anything about restaurants, right?
Michael Jacober (01:09:17.294)Very wide cap, yeah.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:09:34.518)Man, I made a ton of mistakes. And I'm and I'm pretty good at Excel, let me tell you.
Josh Sharkey (01:09:39.138)This feels like a really great business is just aggregating all of that information geographically and just a resource. It's like you're starting a restaurant or you're opening your second or third. You know, what questions do you have? And all of that I'm sure, you know, you need you need some time to sort of pull out all that data from, you know, a a bunch of operators. But imagine if you can just go somewhere and be like, Okay, I need a performer
Where are you located? Cool. Well, here's a couple of laws that you need to know about there. And so here's all the experiences you're gonna need. Here's the average cost of those things in your area. Here's a few vendors that are like, you know, eighty percent of people use this exterminator. And imagine if you had all that information day one. Understand like, you know, here's what prime cost means. So here's where you should lay it, you know.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:10:24.238)Exactly. And and and look, the there's still a tons of risk in in in the restaurant business, but there is a very large multiple standard deviation risk associated with like first time. And look, we want more people in our industry. We want to be more successful, let's put that way. More people to be more successful in our industry, you know, based on the fact that restaurants are important part of our lives.
Josh Sharkey (01:10:49.858)Last question for you. What is a challenge that your restaurant has today that you feel like is just gonna be completely obsolete in five years where you don't even need to w worry about it anymore?
Ming-Tai Huh (01:11:00.942)Hope to pick a god that a true marketing ROI is all. Full on, like digital, online, on prem, walk in the door. I just have a much better understanding of where I'm spending or even not spending to better understand my return on investment or marketing. Mm-hmm.
Michael Jacober (01:11:28.054)I like that plug in five hundred dollars, get out two thousand dollars and I mean I know exactly where it came from.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:11:34.686)Pick a growth one because that's part of our business. We have to grow. If we don't grow, we die, right? Because there's inflation, the thing labor costs go up, everything goes up, right? If we don't grow, we die. And and and in some cases, you know, I'm not gonna put a a worse product on the plate. so I have to figure out how to grow. And I need to find out how to find efficiency for it to grow. So I'm connecting all those dots and making all that data much more easily to understand. That's a big place to
Josh Sharkey (01:12:02.22)I like that. And there I think there's a few people working on that.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:12:04.727)I'm sure that people working on it. Let's get it out and get it at scale and you wanna work?
Michael Jacober (01:12:09.46)on it with me.
Josh Sharkey (01:12:11.662)Ming, thank you. This was awesome and glad we finally made time to to make it happen.
Michael Jacober (01:12:18.07)It great to meet Ming.
Ming-Tai Huh (01:12:19.278)Yeah, plus.
Josh Sharkey (01:12:21.026)Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you liked this episode or any other ones, you can actually check out more of this at getmes.com slash josh. That's G-E-T-M-E-E-Z slash J-O-S-H. I have my podcast there, the Meese Podcast, plus some other shows and interviews. Starting to write some stories and blog posts, some recipes, recaps, things like that. So I think you'll enjoy it. Again, it's getme's dot com slash josh.
Double Easy dot com slash J O S H. Thank you very much. Very grateful for all of you.
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