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About this episode
In this episode of the 86 Reason Podcast by Over Easy Office, Xavier talks to Josh Sharkey, founder of the recipe management platform meez, about his journey in the restaurant industry. Josh shares his fascinating culinary journey, starting from his early days working various restaurant roles, to winning a cooking contest that took him to Norway, and eventually setting up his own fine dining and casual dining establishments. The conversation dives deep into the origins and evolution of meez, a software focusing on the operational success of recipes. Josh emphasizes the importance of operational empathy, effective recipe documentation, and maintaining quality control. The episode wraps up with reflections on the complexities of restaurant operations and a desire for more transparent and effective data usage in the food industry.
Links and resources 📌
Visit meez: https://www.getmeez.com
Follow meez on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/getmeez
Follow Josh on instagram: @joshlsharkey
Subscribe to Over Easy Office: https://www.youtube.com/@OverEasyOffice
What We Cover
00:39 Josh Sharky's Background and Early Career
03:06 Culinary School and Early Influences
04:57 Winning the Contest and Traveling to Norway
10:51 Experiences in Europe and Return to New York
18:17 Opening Bark Hot Dogs and Challenges
25:57 Insights on Management and People
33:00 Street Food Dreams in New York
34:10 Exploring Colombian Cuisine
41:18 Challenges in Recipe Management
46:07 Operational Empathy in Tech
56:44 Future of Restaurant Tech
Transcript
Xavier: [00:00:00] Welcome to the 86 Reason Podcast by Over Easy Office, and I'm here with the Apex Predator of the restaurant tech world. I mean, Josh Sharky with a name like that Sounds bad. No, it's not bad. All right, you, you, I mean, I feel like you have the coolest last name maybe in all of showbiz and Oh, the, yeah, the
Joshua: name.
Sorry. Sharky. That's the Apex
Xavier: Predator man. We need some, we need some context setting here. No, sorry, sorry. So Josh, man, I'm super excited to talk to you. You've got, I mean, I think one of, um, a, a great story and I gotta tell you before we even begin, you are loved in the industry. I feel like anyone that I bring up your name to has such good things to say.
And, um, I've experienced myself. I always have such a good time connecting with you. [00:01:00] But, um, to start, where in
Joshua: the world are you? I am in New York specifically. I'm, uh, in Northern Westchester right now. I have a house near on the, on near the, the Hudson River, and I'm sitting in my office. It's actually the new place, so
Xavier: really, I love it.
Yeah. Perfect. And we're going into, um, going into, into Q4 of, of 2025. I'm, I'm, I was impressed. I'm recording from Bogota and Josh, this worldly man. How many times have you been to Bogota?
Joshua: Um, twice. Once for, um. So I, I have a, a, a friend, a traveler with a long, a long time ago, and she still, still lives there.
And, um, her family, you know, gave me a really great like, taste of everything, Bogota. And then, um, where did we go? Uh, we went to, um, the coast to, um, ah, my gosh. Illa or carna? One of the carna. Yeah. Okay. Oh my gosh. The Rococo [00:02:00] and, and Cartena, by the way, with the burnt, burnt coconut milk. Oh man. It's so good. Yes. I mean, but this was a long, I mean, I think, you know, I've been there, you know, once since I to Bogota, but the first I went was I think in 2003. Oof.
Xavier: I mean, I'm sure the city's changed a lot. My first time here. Five. Okay. Even, even so, man, 2005, where was I? I was in 2005. I was the gm. Of Bobby Flay steak?
No, no, no. I was a server at the Capitol Grill the next year, 2006, I was the GM of Bobby Flay Steak in uh, wow. In in Borg Gata, my friend. Oh my gosh. Did you play poker? No. Thank God, dude, I, I made one large mistake in my gambling career and then I decided I wouldn't do it again. So I, I I, I, I thankfully avoided that bullet, but, alright.
So Josh, what was like, so you've been in this, in, in many different ways. You've been, you've done, um, you've been [00:03:00] an owner, you've been an operator, you've been obviously in, in, involved in all kinds of things. Culinary. What was your first gig like? When did you get
Joshua: into restaurants? Well, I think my first gig is probably not the same as when did I get into restaurants because.
My, well, my first ever job was actually as a telemarketer. Um, what? Josh Shark calling on behalf of the Vietnam Veterans of America. How you doing today? No, it was like four 14. Uh, they got, I think they got, um, um, indicted for like eez one. I, you know, came in a documentary about it actually. But anyways, after that I've seen that one.
Yeah. Yeah. That I did that. Um, and I, and the timing I remember, because I remember listening to it was right when, I think it was like a couple months after life after death came out, um, from Biggie. And, uh, that's just how I remember that. That's funny. That time of your life. Yeah. But, um, but then I worked at Roy Rogers.
Okay. Um, and then, and they're making a comeback. [00:04:00]
Xavier: I hear Roy Rogers.
Joshua: I mean, but so, so through high school, you know, I worked, I worked at a couple restaurants, Roy Rogers, lone Star Steakhouse, uh, Don Pablos. And, but I got into cooking because I, you know, my father passed away when I was 16. And, um, so I started cooking.
Dinners 'cause my mom would like, you know, work and with their kids and, and, and so I would, I would cook at home. And then I, like I, my whole life I've always like made announcements to the public to then force myself to go do the thing. So I was a, I was a big wrestler and like, they interviewed me for the Washington Post or something like that.
And I was like, oh, I'm gonna culinary school. By the way, I had no, I didn't ever talk to a culinary school before, but I like, and that was like the article that they wrote. And so I was like, I guess I'm gonna culinary school now. So I started applying to culinary schools and, and, um, but the, to answer your question, even in culinary school, it didn't quite, it was like, I liked it a lot, but, um, and then I, um.
And, and I had some jobs in, in restaurants there in Providence. I went to JW that, that, that were, you know, good. But I think the, the, the real catalyst was I, [00:05:00] like I won this contest. I flew into New York for the finals. I cooked for a bunch of these chefs you might know, like Eric p or Marcus Samuelson, Rick Moonen,
Xavier: who were those?
Nice.
Joshua: And, um, anyways, I, like, I ended up winning. So they, they, I, I got to fly to Norway and, um, wow. And we traveled the country with them. And, and, and then I was, I went to this restaurant called Oro, which, uh, the guy Ness had just won the boa or like the, uh, the year before. And he opened this restaurant in, in Norway.
And I'd never seen, you know, food at this level before. And right away I was like, yep, this is what I wanna do. Um, it was just so pristine and so precise. And so everybody was so focused and there was just this level of excellence that I was like, this is, this is it. And so that restaurant is actually what, uh, you know, is what was the sort of driving factor.
Okay, now I'm gonna, I wanna go do this.
Xavier: So that's incredible. So Josh, even in your experiences, for example, like Don Paulo's man, by the way,
Joshua: that was Oh man.
Xavier: That's where my love affair with Cholula started.
Joshua: Um, yeah, I mean I actually, it's [00:06:00] funny, I, I, um, I, so I wrestled in high school and I remember in the regionals it was like regional, final or something.
I had this, um, thing around my arm because somebody dropped a ton of ice in the deep fryer and it just shot it of my arm. Like third degree burns. No, in the fire on my arm. And the dude in the finals was like grabbing my arm and no. Um, but Don Pablos was, you know, I was, we were, we were not cooking there.
You're like flipping plates around, throwing them on the, you know, little like conveyor belt. It's, it's assembly, but you know, it actually was pretty, pretty good Mexican food.
Xavier: I listen man, it's funny that you say that and how important marketing is, because I remember my pops, you know, was a bas guy who like, didn't like to spend money going out to eat.
But if I was good, if I was a good boy, he would take me and my brother out to Don Pablo. Yeah. Don Pablos and dude at Donny p they had like a, like a beautiful little Mexican
Joshua: grandmom that was like pressing tortillas. Yeah. They would make the tortillas and press 'em and, and like they [00:07:00] were making all the guacamole in the back.
Yeah. So a couple of fun little tidbits here. Well. Just one. I did, I will say, you know, this was not a point when I was actually cooking where I like took it seriously. So there may have been a few times when I went stoned or on mushrooms. Oh, woo. Nice. But, um, which I would never do microdosing before Microdosing was microdosing.
Yeah. We call it more of a macro, but, um, it was, you know, you know where one of our regulars was, was, I dunno if you remember if we're the same age? Yeah. Roughly. I think, yeah. It was, uh, Lorraina. Bobbit No. Would come in like all the time. Yeah. No.
Xavier: Yeah. Where was, is this in New York,
Joshua: Virginia? I,
Xavier: okay. This is in Virginia, man.
I mean, I did not expect that one. I will tell you. Uh, and I don't know why every time her name comes up, I just, I do one of these, but Okay. And so, so when you were at Don Paulo, were you, were you, you were back of the house? I mean,
Joshua: was it always back? I did both actually. I did mostly back of the house. And then I, like, first, I don't remember why, but I started doing some of the front of house.
I, I remember because the [00:08:00] first day I did it, they had me, they were like, okay, go water. All the plants. And then they were like, I was done. They were laughing and it turned out that like they were all fake plants. Oh, same God. But, um, but I remember, I just remember that was like, that was the first day of my like, front of house ever.
Um, but I didn't do that for long. I did wait on ano, that's why I remember.
Xavier: Oh, I mean, celebrity sightings already. So, I guess so Josh. All right. So you do these couple stints, but then where did you win this competition at? Was it at Johnson Wales?
Joshua: Yeah, it was in college. Somebody like, I, like one of my buddies was like, oh, you should, you should enter this.
And so I did. And it was sponsored by the Norwegian Seafood Export Council. And so I just like come up with a recipe and I did. And, um, were you nervous as fuck? I mean, 'cause like, honestly, dude, well, not really because Okay. You know, I, I didn't know enough to be nervous. Okay. And, um, because I had done a recipe just to get a scholarship into, into college as well.
Like I had a wrestling, like I had a wrestling scholarship and I had to [00:09:00] get like a. Like more because we were poor. Um, to, to, uh, you know, I entered this contest to, to, uh, getting into culinary school as well. But, um, I wasn't nervous. And even when I got to New York, I wasn't as nervous because luckily I had no idea who Eric Repair or Marcus Samuelson or Rick Moonen or Rocko Puo.
Like, I didn't know who they were. Yeah, I, I was probably more nervous today, uh, but I didn't know. I was like, you know, a bushy tailed, you know, little kid. I love it. Um, so I was less nervous than I probably would've been.
Xavier: Crazy. All right, so you win this contest, you go out to Norway, and then, and then you, you go to this restaurant and I, I mean, I can only imagine what it's like because had you ever traveled outside the country at that point?
Joshua: Had I traveled outside the country?
Xavier: Hmm.
Joshua: No, no, I think that was my first semester of the country.
Xavier: And were you,
Joshua: these guys weren't with you, right? Like, it's not like Eric Repair and Marco Samuel. Yeah. Yeah. They, they, yeah. They, they, they were there over the, for the, the whole, the trip and everything. The trip, yeah.
We traveled the country. So [00:10:00] we went to like, to the Lain Islands in the north and saw these sort of villages and looked at fishing and like salmon fishing farms and whale and, you know, uh, they were, yeah, they were. And I don't think all of, I think it was just Eric Repair and Rick Moonen were, had ended up coming.
And then John Mariani, who's like a one like food writer dude. So, I mean,
Xavier: to only think of what kind of man do, do you still have a relationship with any of those guys? Are you ever like, yo, remember that time we went on that trip? Well, I went to work
Joshua: for, for, um, Rick at Oceana afterwards. Um. Um, I, I, I always like question, why did I go work for Rick and not Eric?
I mean, I learned a ton from, from Rick. It was great Oceania. Um, but I haven't spoken to Rick moved out to, um, Vegas and he's in Vegas now and I haven't spoken to him, or maybe he's in Texas now. I haven't spoken to him in a long time. Uh, or, or, or chef repair, man.
Xavier: Okay, so you get back from, from, from Norway and then your mind was blown.
And, and so is that when you're like, all right, [00:11:00] I need to like, dig in. Like what's your thought process then? Obviously you go to work at Oceana, but like you've, you've, I feel like you've gotten to work at some pretty
Joshua: excellent. Yeah, I was all in, right? I just, like, I moved to new, I just packed up and moved to New York.
I had 19 bucks and I, you know, this was back in 99 or 2000, whatever it was. I remember like, and, uh, it was Craigslist. So I found a basement apartment in Middle Village Queens for 500 bucks a month. Never met the guy, never saw the apartment, and bought it in, you know, rented off Craigslist and showed up and that's, that's, uh, that's
Xavier: how I got to New York.
Wow. And then, so you get to New York and what's your first gig? Is it at Oceania? Yeah, ocean. Yeah. Oceania
Joshua: was the first,
Xavier: first restaurant. And, and then where did you go from there?
Joshua: So after Oceania, I, I ended up going to Jean George actually. And then, um, to,
Xavier: to, to the eponymous Jean George, the big, the big deal, three star Michelin spot.
Joshua: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, well to, you know, when you start at John George, you always start what they call the nicotine room, which is down below. Okay. Um, uh, that's it. Like, I think a [00:12:00] couple weeks. I don't remember. How quickly was it into it? Into the, into, you know, to, to getting the, the, the job that, um, the.
The folks that, that, um, I went to Norway with that organized it. They had asked me to go cook for the us uh, at the Celon Augusto in, in Northern Italy. And what then? And basically travel through Italy. And it was like, SLO Augusto is a really incredible, uh, event. Um, uh, I won't get into the details, but it's pretty, pretty incredible.
And it, this was in Torino this year, and I was like, oh, I have to do this like I have to. Yeah. And, um, I told the chef, I was like, Hey, I, I got, I, I'm sorry, but I really have to do this. And then I ended up like, not being able to work there. They were. Pissed, which understandably, you know. Yeah. Uh, but I ended up, so I went to, um, I went to Europe and then I stayed there for a while.
So I like went to Gusto and cooked this, you know, this dinner in, in Italy. And then, um, and then got to participate in this incredible event. And I met like the [00:13:00] producers of, you know, the most incredible, um, par Parmesan ano, like the Val Serino, uh, Parmesan and some of the best, um, you know, sherry producers, like Gonzalez Baez and things.
And they were all, so I, all these things I didn't know much about. And so, and I, you know, pumpkin sea oil from, from, um, from Vienna and. And so like, I met all these people and learned all these things and so then I just stayed in Europe and I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to Spain now. I'm gonna go to no way to, um, you know, Santa Barra and, and like drink some, some zania and learn about that.
And then I'm gonna go to, you know, to San Sebastian and I'm just gonna go like learn and explore. And so that's what I did for a few months. And then I came back, broke in like lots of debt and um, ended up working for, uh, Floyd at Tabla.
Xavier: Wow.
Joshua: How long, how long did
Xavier: that this, did this love affair with Europe last?
Joshua: Well, it's just, yeah, it was not necessarily Europe specifically, it's just that like, I was like, okay, let me just go learn these things and do these things, things. [00:14:00] Course, course it was a, I think it was a, I don't, I don't remember maybe, maybe a, maybe a couple months I had like, the Al Pass had some buddies that were there for a little bit of it and then, um, and then some of 'em went back and, and um, yeah, I don't remember exactly how long, a couple months or something.
Xavier: Wow. Alright. Then you come back to New York, you're working for Floyd. And, and when did, when did you get your first chef job? Or when, when did like your responsibilities start to change within the operation? Beyond, um, you know, contributing on the line and stuff?
Joshua: Yeah, it's that a good question because I actually think it's the, it's maybe the wrong way to think about it.
Okay. 'cause um, like if you think of it that way, um, then you, um, then there's this sort of complete switch that you're supposed to turn on when you become a quote unquote chef. And what I love about, uh, cooking is that, and I, and I like employed this now with my team in, in my business, and I tell, you know, everybody this is that you become the [00:15:00] CEO of your temple, which is your station.
And so you all, I just never thought of it as anything like, even like a job. Okay. I, I have this. This company, which is the Soft Station, or the Beat Station, or the Veg station, and everything needs to be perfect. Um, you know, I have to, I'm gonna get there early. I'm gonna get my Music Plus together. I'm gonna make sure I, you know, so I, I think of it that way.
But that's more of a, of a, of an aside. The first Chef job, I think was like, when I became like a sous chef at, at Cafe Gr. I mean, technically they hired me as a sous chef at Bole, but I was not a sous chef. Um, yeah, there was, there was, was kinda a of a mess there. And there was, there was, um, I mean, the next job after Tableau was bole.
And, um, there was, you know, an incredible team there. Like, you know, Evan Rich from Rich Table and Christina Toi and PJ Kpa from, you know, of, he's got a bunch of places. I mean, a bunch of really incredible, you know, uh, cooks now, now, now chefs and, um, you know, like. The GM had said, Hey, you should come on and be a sous chef.
But I was not ready to be a sous chef at that restaurant, nor was [00:16:00] I a sous chef. But they, you know, that's what they sort of quote unquote, hired me. But, um, I was not by any means, so I wasn't really until Cafe gr, which is with great Kons, that I kind, sort of like got promoted to more of a chef chef role.
Xavier: Yeah. I, I love the ownership mentality. I think it's in Oh, you're,
Joshua: um, yeah. Uh, it, it went silent for a minute,
Xavier: but, ah, um, I was gonna say that, um, it, you know, I, I feel like the moment you are getting yelled at as a result of other people's responsibilities, but you're in charge of, I feel like that's when you're really a chef, a manager, anything like that, when you become responsible for other people's actions, I would say in my mind.
Joshua: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely. Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. I mean, it happens when you're a cook too, because you, yeah, you might have prep cooks that do some, that do some work for you, and you're still responsible for making sure the mis plus is tight, even if they pick the herbs or something.
[00:17:00] But, uh, yeah, the measure of success being how successful the pe the people that you manage is when you become, you know, a manager. I don't know how you define that as chef or manager. Um, I think there's, the, the word chef I think has probably been, you know, used in many different ways. Um, so yeah, I think it's sort of how you, how you split it.
That's
Xavier: true. And then, so Josh, after, I mean, you named some of the most important people and restaurants in the New York scene and, um, I feel like at, at some point when we met you were actually helping oversee. Uh, I forget the name of the group is now escaping me, but it was, uh, the LPQ group with, uh, or, or I brands.
Or I brands. So just, I mean, from that jump, 'cause I, I feel like for, for a lot of people, the jump into a more corporate, or let's say, you know, an enterprise role, right? [00:18:00] Where you're not responsible for the four walls of one dining room, but you start to move into responsibilities across multiple brands or even just multiple stores.
How did that transition happen for you?
Joshua: Well, it, it, it wasn't from, you know, from the cooking and restaurants to that, so I, in 2008, I was planning to open a fine dining restaurant. I was like, this is what I wanna do, and then Great timing. Yeah. It was not a great time to do that. I was like, uh, anyway, so I ended up with, um, uh, this really talented guy of Brandon.
Uh, we. Brandon Gils. We, we, we worked on a concept called Bark Hot Dogs. And so I decided to open this like, fast casual, uh, concept called bark hotdog with him in Brooklyn at the time. That was very novel. It didn't, it wasn't a thing. Yeah. People didn't do like, like fine dining folks did not go and do that.
And I got a lot of hate for it, actually. Especially really chefs, well, like chefs that I, that I were like, how, how could you do this? Floyd, you know, Floyd bless his heart and, and, and obviously rest in peace. He was, he was disappointed in me because he wanted me [00:19:00] to continue being a, you know, in fine dining and I think more, maybe more.
So he was just looking out for me. Um, yeah, Greg Coons not so much. I think he was, he was excited just 'cause it was, he's entrepreneurial, but, but, um, that was what I did first. So, so I sort of took my fine dining world and I said, okay, why don't we like fill this gap? There's no real good food that is, you know, affordable, you know, casual.
So that we opened up bark and it, it, um, you know, right away it was like. Um, you know, a pretty big success. We did really well. We got lots of great, you know, reviews and, and um, and, you know, started to scale that. Then I learned all the ways you can fail if you don't do that, right. Sure. Um, but um, so I did, we had that for about eight years, scaled to like four different locations.
And then after Bark was when I went to, um, or to, or I brands because um, you know, I had met Andy and John who run really, really, really sharp guys that, that are the co-CEOs of Warhood brands. And, you know, we had been chatting over the years and, and um, when I, when I sent an email out saying like, you know, Hey, I'm gonna be like.[00:20:00]
Selling this company. I'm gonna start something new. Um, they, I think Andy maybe emailed me like 10 minutes later, like, come Tofi. Yeah. And I was like, no, I don't wanna, I want, I wanna do this other thing. And we did that for a while and then finally it was like, okay, I'll, I'll come here, I'll, I'll come to, or I, and then can you just help fund this like, thing I wanna build me?
Oh. So that's how I got to, or I was, was um, you know, like I agreed to, you know, I would, I would come there and then they, and they, you know, graciously were like, yeah, let's, let's do it. And so they let me like build this thing within the ecosystem of, of, or I, and they funded it. Um, amazing. You know,
Xavier: but we, we need to touch on bark.
'cause eight years of owning restaurants and scaling beyond one is another level of insane. I think. So, um, first off, were you guys like making your own buns and your own dogs? Like what was taking your fine dining? So we made a lot of our
Joshua: own stuff. So like, for example, like we would get a whole cow in.
What [00:21:00] organics farm. Are you serious? Yeah. I mean, so. Yeah. Yeah. So like we would get the whole cow from s Organics. We would send like the, the ribeye to Jake at, um, Dixon's, just like butcher shop and Chelsea market. But we'd take the rest of the cow. So I would go, I went up to the farm, work with the, with the, with the slaughterhouse to say, okay, here's how I'd like to break it down here.
All the pieces. And so we would get the whole cow in. To the restaurant and like, that's how we made our burger. Um, and we made, you know, pretty much everything was scratch. We made, you know, sauerkraut in, in, in the, in the chardonnay barrels and we would, you know, make our own, you know, heirloom baked beans, all this stuff the, the, the hot dogs at, at first we were like, okay, let's do this.
And then we very quickly realized there was this really incredible guy of state in, um, in Rochester, and we worked with him on, on a recipe for us that, um, um, that was sort of our, our bark hotdog. And then we made this kinda smoked smoked lard butter. That, that, that, um, we, every hotdog, I ba it in. So
Xavier: dude, it sounds so good.
Is has there ever look, I never got to go to go to bark, which sounds like it [00:22:00] would've been a ridiculous hotdog experience or like, I think simple things done really well is like the aesthetic that I've always loved the most and I never got to go to hot dogs, which I know is another, like, incredible spot.
Is there anything like. Similar to that these days. Like I know you were probably 15, 20 years ahead of what people could truly appreciate, but like is there anything like what you did then now having
Joshua: come across it? I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. I, I don't know of it, but I'm, but I'm, I'm sure that there is.
But I agree with you by the way. Actually the hardest thing to do are the things that are really simple, right? Can you perfectly toast a bun? Can you choose the right bun? Is it the right bun for the right hotdog? Is it, yeah. You know, is it like, how are you, you know, are you steaming it or are you griddling it?
And then how are you holding it? Or are you doing it to order? And, you know, when do, when you finish it, like, uh, where does you know, does it go right in the bun or do you have to bring it somewhere else first? And then how do you think about the toppings? Is it the right [00:23:00] acidity? Is it the right sweetness?
And you have to taste it all together because you, things get lost. When you have a bun. You lose more, you know, things get diluted. All that stuff. You look at just a hot dog and a bun, and it's a relish, right? And you're like, okay, that's, that's easy. But actually, it's really, really hard. And what's ironic is like, if you put that, so we would make like these, you know, these like, you know.
Like, uh, pork sausages with cheddar, and we would use like the smoked graft and cheddar and a bunch of, you know, uh, really incredible, you know, pork from heritage, heritage meats and, and make these really great sausages and put it on a bun, right? And you would have like a, we, we would make a slaw and we'd pickle our jalapenos.
All these things like that, right? And yeah, it would, it was incredibly difficult to make that good and balanced. And it was eight bucks, right? If you did the same exact sausage and you put it on a plate and you put a couple dollops of things around it, $22
Xavier: appetizer.
Joshua: Yeah, $22 and probably won't even be as good.
But that's the, that's what always sort of, um, bothered me about the perception of the cost of food [00:24:00] is there's a perception that if you put it on a plate, um, and it served to you that it should be so much, it, it should be so much more expensive. And ironically, actually that plate you can reuse and the, and the biodegradable, you know, um, you know, uh, tub that, and you can't, and all those things have to be perfect at scale.
You know, and at, at, you know, at a speed, it's so much harder and you pay a fraction of the price. Um, it was always the thing, like, it, it actually started to really like eat at me. Interesting. Um, as I was scaling the business, like, man, there's, you know, there's people pulling up in Mercedes that are upset about a four, $4, 50 cent hot dog.
And Yeah. You know, there's a, there's a real like, disparity between the perception of where things should cost and what they actually are.
Xavier: And Josh, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, because I, I opened a restaurant in 2008 also, and this was a farm to table, like a, like an a tequila bar that was focused on all [00:25:00] scratch kitchen.
We were the first people in Dallas doing like fresh lime juice and margaritas. People will complain about this stuff. Like, for example, we had rabbit nachos, like smoked rabbit. We got this local farmer, we did all these cool like local cheese, and we're like, let's do a fun twist on Tex-Mex. And people would say, we want the rabbit nachos, but can you switch the rabbit for, for, uh, chicken and the chicken, uh, also instead chi, wawa cheese.
We'd love it if you could just throw queso on there. And after a while I'm just like, what are we doing? People complaining about fresh lime juice in the margarita. Like, I think I'm going crazy. But I think what was even more um, mystifying was the type of person that you're now working with. 'cause you go from a place like, let's just say tabla, right?
Everybody's motivated, everybody's competitive, everybody wants to do a great job. What was it like and what [00:26:00] kind of things did you learn about people and management having to move from fine dining where everybody's bought in to now? Something where it's obviously Yeah,
Joshua: a much. That's a great question.
It's, um, and there's so, so much learning there. And actually it's, it's driven so much of what I do and how I think now because, um, and by the way, I think this should be applied to fine dining regardless. 'cause it's typically not, you know, and you know, in the fine dining world, typically, like there's an ambi ambiguous recipe unless you're using these and, and uh, and, and then it gets made wrong and then the chef yells at you add Z gum and you don't actually know why.
Right. And um, and then you're just sort of, you don't even know what good looks like. Right. And you know, Eric Bromberg from Blue Ribbon, you know, said something to me that's probably he thinks is innocuous. But I remember from many years ago, I was helping him with this restaurant, you know, up in Vermont and he said, um, that you have to create an environment where everybody can be successful.
And, you know, it always stuck with [00:27:00] me because yeah, once you open a restaurant where they're not there because they want to be the next ex, they're there because they need a job, because they need, you know, money. And they might have two jobs. They might, you know, um. You, you have to create, you know, a, a playbook for them where they can be successful, where they, you know, it's actually your responsibility for 'em to be successful, not theirs.
And, and of course they have, they have to of course, you know, follow the playbook and, and, but their ability to be successful should be very, um, quantifiable. And it should be very like, you know, easy to understand how, and to do that, you have to, you have to really set that up, right? You have to have process.
You have to engineer, you know, an environment that works for 'em. You have to have recipes that are dialed in process that are dialed in. You have to think through all the steps of service. You have to think through where you put things in the, in the, in, you know, on the station. Because they don't necessarily, they might not think that.
So my biggest, you know, learning as it relates to people is, is, is that, is you have to, you know, you, you have to set them up for success. And then [00:28:00] further, right, is it's when you have that environment. Now, look, it was a little bit of a, of a. Of a, of a blend because we did think about like creating really delicious food.
So it was a part of the culture at at Bark. Um, but it's not always that way, right? And it isn't that way for everything. So then you have to think about, okay, what are the other ways that you motivate people, right? Yeah. You have to make them feel like they're, they, they have an impact. You have to make them feel like they have a voice.
And, and those are things you just never, you don't think about that as a, you know, as a chef and not, you just, you know, at least most people don't. And that was a big takeaway for me.
Xavier: Crazy. So, alright to, to, to put the period on the end of these hot dogs. 'cause I mean, I love the name by the way. Bark. I mean, I just wanna go there just to buy a t-shirt.
But, um, do you have a favorite? You go to supermarket, you're grilled for family, um, you know, is there a store dog that you subscribe to or do you go fancy? Do you have like a go-to dog resource? [00:29:00]
Joshua: Yeah, so I, I don't have a go-to dog and there isn't a store dog. I mean, look, I will say, I mean, I'm, I'm from the, uh, Ashkenazi, you know, background all beef national.
It's gonna, yeah, Hebrew National is always delicious. But, but honestly, like my and my daughter likes it kind of any hotdog. So typically it's just the whole Foods hot dog. Um. When I go, but when, if I'm gonna go like grill, actually, because my wife loves this too, is we actually, we, we always buy cheddar bros.
Like, okay, so much, you know, like new skis makes a great one too. Yeah, okay. This actually makes a really good one. Cheddar Bros with something spicy is really good. Um, so I typically get those instead. Alright, so, so you're
Xavier: going for, you're not going classic you, like, you, you want an elevated dog experience and are you, are you crowd, are you mustard?
Are you spicy,
Joshua: are you yellow? If it's a hot dog, if it's a, if it's, it's cheddar, I want something spicy, like really spicy. If it's a hot dog, like I'm going to like a, you know, to, in, I'm in, you know, in New York and I'm gonna get a dog off a, off of, off of a cart. [00:30:00] I typically will go sauerkraut and mustard and, and ketchup.
I always put ketchup on. Okay. The ketchup is a bold move, my friend. I, you, I, you know what, first of all, don't make your own ketchup, please. Thank you. Just buy Heinz. Thank, thank you. Thank you. Just stop it. And um, and second, like, why do people hang on ketchup? I don't listen
Xavier: man, look now, oh, I heard something about this.
So something about in Chicago. Oh, oh, got it. Alright, so here's what I heard. I don't know if it's true, I'm just gonna pass it along. I'll take 30 seconds and then we can put the catch up to bed. But supposedly in the old times of Chicago, the um, what they would do with all of the pieces of meat that wouldn't sell in the stockyards is they would slow simmer them supposedly in like a ketchup based sauce in order to hide, like if meat went spoiled or wasn't good or whatever.[00:31:00]
And. I guess some mayor came in and started putting more like, uh, you know, ha plans, whatever, like putting more health inspection in the type of meat you were allowed to buy. Yeah. And she, he or she put this whole marketing plan together saying, no ketchup. That's all only in place so that you can hide the quality of beef you have.
And it became this wild thing from there.
Joshua: That is, I never, I've never heard that before. I will say, and I don't know, this is for your, your whole team behind you as well. Yeah. I don't know if this is a common thing in Boba, but I had, um, chorizo that was basically braised in Coca-Cola Cho grilled braised.
Is that a common thing? In, in, in Bogota. Raquel.
Xavier: Let, let's, let's, let's, let's get Raquel in on this one. It's like Sied in
Joshua: Coca-Cola, and then they grilled it and it was unreal. Delicious. So [00:32:00]
Xavier: let, let, let, let's hear from Raquel on this one. Thi this is
Joshua: chorizo braised in cola chorizo and they would simmer it in Coca-Cola and then grill it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's something that we do here as well. And if coca with just regular hot sausage,
Xavier: it's something you do with how really?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Not only with Zo, but some people we do it here with regular hot dog sausages.
Xavier: Have you had this Raquel?
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's sweet. It's nice. Yeah.
Xavier: When was the last time you had a a Coca-Cola Grased piece of meat?
Speaker 3: Can't remember the last time because I had done, okay, so here's a, here's another based on that. But that's something, it's something that's popular here, I have to said.
Joshua: Okay. I don't know if Raquel would know this, but like where do you get good San Cocho in New York? In,
Speaker 3: in New York. I thought you were gonna say Bogota in New York.
Oh my God.
Joshua: We're gonna have to find a [00:33:00] Colombian. We can, we can take this offline, but I would like to know if there, if there is, I'm sure there's lots of it in, in Bogota, but, uh, but, uh,
Xavier: I'm curious. We're gonna find out. We're gonna, we're gonna reach out to the network, Josh, and see if we can find you some good sancocho.
'cause it's,
Speaker 3: well, there's something, you know what, uh, Josh,
uh, I've always, uh, told, uh, ex that I really wanna go to New York to do this, uh, culinary, uh, street food. Remember? That's why I talked to my podcast.
Xavier: Yes. So Raquel's dream is to do a street food crawl throughout New York to taste all the different.
Street food, delicacies of New York, and you know, we're going from hot dogs to pizza to street meats. Ooh. I've gotten pretty sick, honestly, Raquel, with some, um, late night choices on the way back from Penn Station to Philadelphia, where, you know, I really regretted, uh, pizzas meat on the stick that I got.
But Josh, maybe what we'll have to do is collaborative, a collaborative meetup where Oh, [00:34:00] yeah. Where Josh gets an opportunity to show you some of his favorite street carts and then it's up to you, Raquel. We gotta find a good son, Cocha for Josh. We got you bro.
Speaker 3: We're gonna do that. Yeah.
Joshua: Last question. Yeah.
For Raquel, is there like a difference between Band Campina and Bandha? Paa
Speaker 3: paa, yeah. It's actually Ca Campina. I think it's, yeah. And it's a different, Banda is bigger. It's got, uh, Morga and then the ela, it's smaller and it's served on a, on a, how do you say this? Like, um,
Xavier: like a plate?
Speaker 3: Uh, Paton. Yeah, like a pat?
Xavier: Yeah. Okay. Yeah,
Speaker 3: like a bowl. And then when they have pies, it's serve on a big platter. Okay. Yeah. And, and I, lunch serve. Short,
Xavier: long story short,
Speaker 3: yeah. Long story short, um, the, uh, ela, it's smaller and then the, it's bigger and has more ingredients.
Joshua: Okay. Gotcha.
Xavier: I never had [00:35:00] the cassela, Josh. So you're like, you're a step ahead of me and I'm in Bogota, I'm in Columbia all the time, so I gotta find this guy.
Sweater.
Speaker 3: I think he's like, I think he's, he's a set up head step ahead of you.
Xavier: You know what, you should take responsibility at this for this Raquel, because Oh my God's your God.
Speaker 3: I knew it was, I knew that You're,
Xavier: you're my culinary manager, okay. Here in Bogota. Have you, have you had good ACO there yet?
Absolutely have. I've had multiple versions of ACO and I never, I was never, um, one of the things that was most surprising to me about ACO was adding capers to soup. Felt like it was going to be a big mistake, but it wasn't. It was delicious. So, you know, capers in a broth is like, oh, what the fuck is going on here?
I, but it was fantastic. I really enjoy it. So, KO's delicious. Josh, you just need to come visit us here. Why would you go to New York when you mean, I. Yeah, I mean we should just had the podcast
Joshua: there.
Xavier: Well, maybe we can set that [00:36:00] up.
Joshua: So, yeah.
Xavier: Alright. Sorry to derail. No, it's, it's, this is, this is exactly why you're probably into what you're doing.
'cause your love of food, it's uh, it oozes outta your pores. So. Alright, so don't make ketchup and now we're moving on to me, my friend. 'cause first off, did you, when, so when you had put together the idea for me and you approached the guys from RFI and you'd worked out a deal where you guys would collaborate and you'd help on the operation side, and obviously they would start getting behind this tech product.
Was it based off of your experience in Bark or was there a specific thing that like really was, um,
Joshua: calling you for this? No, it was, it was a, it was a compounding effect. Okay. It's like, I, I feel bad 'cause I've told the story a lot, but, um, you know, the, the, or the impetus originally was. When I was much younger, I was, this was in 2002 or three, I was working for Floyd at, at tabla, and I would always have multiple jobs wherever, wherever I always wanted to [00:37:00] like be working at multiple places.
So in the morning I worked for free at the CEL area in Union Square, Maori Vitali had this cell Maria called Union Square. Um, the
Xavier: mole dude. Wasn't that the mole, the mole sausage that his dad made?
Joshua: Well, he made everything, but this was like, you know, Penta, all, everything. This guy Dan Latham ran it. And so I would, I worked there, you know, in the mornings, just like doing whatever I could learn.
And, um, and then I, and I kept the notebooks like everybody did. And I, and I, I had a notebook of all the recipes from the, from the, um, you know, from everything I was learning. And then on my day off, I would just st start at restaurants because that's what you do. You just go to learn in other places. And so I was staging at this restaurant and, um, called Veritas and I, and I lost the notebook and that my, that, that was the original, like, oh my God, I need to digitize everything.
Oh. Uh, so the original idea was I wanted to digitize on my recipes. Okay. So then, of course, you know, as I started. Working at more restaurants and then as I started having to like understand food cost, uh, and understand [00:38:00] training. And you know, I remember being at Cafe GR a couple years later and we would go to Montreal for the festival in Lumier every year.
And like essentially you chefs from around the world would go and take over a kitchen. And so Gray and I would go, would go and take over this kitchen and run a tasting menu and um, they would prep a lot of the stuff ahead of time. There's some trouble getting stuff across the board and things like that.
But like, you would, you know, you would, you would show up and then you'd work with this team there. Yeah, and it really was me. 'cause Gray would go, you know, everyone would talk to 'em. So I, I had to go around this kitchen. So yeah, I remember like having to build, um, very, very precise recipes. Making sure to convert everything in grams have, oh gosh.
In French, right. Video, video, recording these things. Really. And I sent them CDs of, you know, 'cause it was very, you know, it was like, has to be precise. Like, we make this truffle soup, there's making this like blanc cut devo. And I was like, but like, we had a special way we did it. And so it had to be precise.
And so I sent all this stuff digitally in CDs and I mailed it to them. What? And, and, and, um, and I was like, man, this is crazy. [00:39:00] Um, and, and things like that kept happening, you know? And then I would run, you know, I, I started my restaurants and realized like, my gosh, like our recipes are in Google Docs and they're in Google Sheets and they're also have like, you know, video training in these, in, in, in, in these places.
They were amusing PowerPoints and, uh, it's all, it was all over the place. And the only thing I've found was like, here's some accounting or inventory software. I'm like, cool, but like I'm talking about recipes, like, right. Like, you know, and they're like, well, yeah, you could put your, like, you could put a list of ingredients for a recipe there.
I'm like, no, no. I mean, like recipe dude. Right. I'm trying to actually make it, it's, it's like they were, it's like they were saying, Hey Tesla, you, you should design your engine in QuickBooks. Right, right. You know, like, because that's where all the parts are. So Yeah, you list all your parts are like, no, no, no.
I'm talking about cooking a recipe. And nobody, nobody even thought about it, let alone, you know, um, was building anything. And so I was like, okay, well I just need this. It wasn't even a business idea. It was like, well, it actually, at first it was like, I just need to [00:40:00] build this 'cause I want it. Right. And I tried a couple times with like, just like funding it myself with some, you know, developers.
And I was like, okay, this, this won't work. I need help. Um, so, so then that's when it became like, okay, well, you know, we we're going to really build this thing. Right. It, the, the way I thought about it, we. Um, and I don't wanna get too like tech ish, but like you, this guy Peter Thiel, that like has this philosophy, like anything that you build should be at least an order of magnitude.
So 10 x better than anything that exists, or it should not compete with anything that exists. And the way I thought about this was, well, we're gonna replace Google Docs and Google Sheets and PowerPoint. So we have to be, you know, an order of magnitude at least better than that. 'cause that's where everybody puts their recipes.
And then we can't compete with any back office. Like, we shouldn't be like in the same conversation with inventory systems. 'cause that was the unfortunately and still is kinda like erroneously how think people think about it. So that's how me sort of came to be serendipitously when I, when I, when I went to, or Fify, you know, I had this notion of what I wanted to build, but then I realized at scale, oh my gosh, there's just all [00:41:00] these other like opportunities.
Yeah. Uh, an impact when you have a hundred restaurants or 200 and you have, or if you have 10, but you have, you know, 10 million, 50 million in revenue where like there's a big impact in terms of executing and, and, and food costs. So, so that's how meez became what it is today. It's,
Xavier: uh, it's an incredible thing that you bring up specifically around, you know, the inventory platforms that are, you know, one size fits all, but it doesn't, it speaks to maybe the quantitative portion of it, which is, I put, you know, 40 pounds of beef and whatever in my meatballs, but it has nothing to do with how you're gonna execute it and, uh, how it should taste.
And if you're gonna caramelize the onions and what's the color of it, and should they be cooled down before you add 'em back in? And how do you mix it by hand in a machine like that? The technique, the, um, all of the [00:42:00] things that go into a recipe. I mean, trust me, I, you give me a pan, you give eight people salt, pepper, olive oil, and a chicken breast.
The same pan and all of them are gonna taste differently. I mean, they're all gonna be a different chicken.
Joshua: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's so true. And it's funny 'cause people forget that like, this is a food business and it, it's tough because I, I try to be careful like, you know. It at, at, at times I felt very insulted that like, this was what you were sharing.
Like, I'm like, Hey, I need recipe software and you're giving me, uh, your back office system, and it's part of just the DNA of what you build. Like I would not ask QuickBooks to then go and build me a recipe tool. Right? Yeah. And I think that's what's, what happened is like, oh, well there's recipes, so we'll try to like, you know, custom fit some piece of it to make it recipe to it.
And it's like, it's either, it's either you, you do or you don't, you know? And. I think there's just so much that goes into thinking about how to manage, you know, your ip, your recipes, that that has [00:43:00] nothing to do with, um, with, you know, with a, with, with the finance system. That, that, that,
Xavier: yeah,
Joshua: there is a lot that does.
Right. And so you have to have that connectivity and that's what, you know, we, we try to do as a connect with those systems really well. But, um, that's why, that's what motivated me most was like, man, like this isn't fair. It's not fair that you're told this is your, your, your, your recipe platform. Because, you know, again, it's just like, you know, you don't ask an architect to, um, you know, go design the building or the, the equipment schedule in an accounting platform, right?
Yeah. You, you, they, they have a tool built for that. If they have AutoCAD or they have whatever, because that's how they, their brain thinks, and it's, and it's creative and there's, and there's, you know, iterativeness to it. And then the output of that is a, you know, is a, is a finance system. And so that's really a lot of what drove me to, to, to, to keep building this was, uh, this isn't gonna happen, uh, by, you know, unless I build it.
Because the only thing that exists today are, you know, back office systems. Right. And by the way, they're great, they're [00:44:00] necessary. You have to have them. Sure. And they're just, they're just a different thing, you know,
Xavier: they're totally a different thing. I agree. And so what do you think, I often am surprised, and I don't wanna say surprised, um, I think there's a disconnect often exactly to what you're speaking to between the quantitative part of it, which is like, here's what makes up my recipe.
And the qualitative part of it, even to the simplest. Portion of yields, right? Um, hey, do you bring in pre-cut six ounce slices, uh, six ounce pieces of salmon, or are you breaking your own salmon down and you know, what are the average sizes? And I have to imagine that you are interacting and your team interacts with a variety of, um, of experience levels in terms of recipe.
So how do you believe that [00:45:00] you can start to help wrangle the industry into a place where they're actually understanding how to build a proper recipe? Like has that been a challenge? Is there, have you guys tried to employ ways to get people to understand the small impacts that things like yield and portion size and all of the, and batch recipes have on how it interacts with the product or with, with your, with your platform?
Joshua: Uh, you, you, uh, cut out for just, you, you cut out for just a minute, so if you don't mind, I probably edit the post Well, but like, can you ask that repeat question? Yeah. Just repeat this the last, like 30 seconds. 'cause I, I, I, I heard, um, how do I help the industry? I mean, cut out. Okay.
Xavier: So, um, my question Joshua, was based on all of the different types of chefs and operators and their experience level and what their idea of a recipe should [00:46:00] look like, how have you and your team had to help them?
Develop, uh, ideas or techniques around how to actually build a recipe. Like, 'cause I, I have to imagine every single restaurant.
Joshua: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I,
Xavier: I got you.
Joshua: So, um, I mean, first of all, most people, the way I think about this is, is a little bit differently in that like our, our, you know, our job should be to help build a tool that, uh, adapts to how you write a recipe.
Um, I think okay, too, too often people think about like a tool to solve a problem. And a tool should be something that, like, you have a problem, you know how you wanna solve it, and there's a tool that will help you do that well. And as opposed to like, I have a problem, so let me get a tool to solve it. And I think that's important, right?
It's important, um, you know, way to, just to think about, you know, about tools in, in general, but, you know, the first thing that we do [00:47:00] is, is we, you know, we, we wanna create a universal, uh, um. Format, like a universal way in which re recipes can be written so that they can then be, um, structured and pushed to other places that you need.
Because one of the biggest problems is not necessarily that people don't know how to write them, I think they do, is that everybody writes them in a different way.
Xavier: Hmm.
Joshua: And there's millions of iterations of how you write a recipe, different ways you write batch sizes, different ways you write like the ingredients or the notes and things like that.
And then what happens over time is that it's impossible to then take that static way in which you've written something and then connect it to your, your company, to everything that you do in your company. And so the first thing is just making sure that there's a universal structure that everybody in the world can agree.
Like, yep, this makes sense. Let's just write this way. And then that means that we have to have a lot of, you know, flexibility and, and, and be dynamic enough so that it works for everyone. Um, and then, you know, making sure that all of the, all of the skillset that is not part of. [00:48:00] Uh, the ability to come up with and write a, you know, a, a you know, your idea into a recipe in a way that is understandable that, that people can execute.
And we just take that outta the equation. For example, like you said, like you shouldn't have to know how much half a cup of sliced carrots weigh, and you shouldn't have to write the recipe differently because you buy carrots by the pound or by the bag. Just write the recipe the way you write it. And then we should, we should be able to then take that and then extrapolate what that means for cost and nutrition.
Just do it the way you already do it. Right. And that's our job. And I think people forget that. They're like, no. Yeah, well if you, as long as you do this, then you'll get this. And, and then this is our long-term vision, right? Because we've done a lot already, but like, you know, we just have this. This insane up, uh, release we're gonna talk about soon.
Um, that's pretty revolutionary of how we're getting recipes in. We already have like a pretty, like we, we have, we, we, we built our own sort of AI model to help ingest recipes and parse them and structure them and things like that, and the ability to how you, how you write them. But we have a, an [00:49:00] update to do that and mass.
But, but, um, you know, our, our job should be over time that like, no matter what, like you keep doing it the way that you do it, the way your brain works. And we, our job is to make sure that it gets converted into what, you know, what you can then, you know, use for how to understand cost, how to understand margin, how to understand nutrition, how to certain allergens or write it, how to understand what you missed, right?
So you wrote, you know, hazelnut oil, um. In the, in the, in the, in the prep steps, like finish with hazelnut oil, but there's no hazelnut oil in the recipe. Like, you should know that, right? You should be like, oh yeah, I, I forgot to put that ingredient in. Uh, or vice versa and, and things like that. So, or just, Hey, this, this is not clear enough, right?
Like, you, you wrote this, right? Um, it says blend it, right? But, um, do you blend it until smooth? Are you supposed to press it down first? You know, do you use the, the, the, you know, the plunger to press it down? And is it okay if it gets hot? Do you put everything at once? Uh, things that like, they might not think about that others will, that will mean the recipe won't be, won't be made as clearly.
Those are [00:50:00] things, you know, that we, that forward looking, we think about of these are the ways that we should be helping. Uh, and then just removing the, the things that are not key to what your job is of creating delicious food and making sure that it's, you know, something that people can, you know, can execute.
Xavier: I, um, I. Having gotten into a couple recipe module, um, project myself, I think it's often overlooked how detailed and how much work goes into this stuff. But did you just say, so do you guys have like a database of ingredients, for example, minced garlic or, uh, you use the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Joshua: So, so that was a big part of what we did before we ever launched.
So I,
so before we had, we had, we had, I dunno, I guess five years or so before we launched, where I was lucky enough to be able to do this at scale with many different kitchens, [00:51:00] uh, to test. Thousands of ingredients. So we would test hundreds of times peeling and onion and dicing it, chopping it, slicing it, juicing it.
Uh, how much do you lose? How much does half a cup of that way? How much is a teaspoon that way? What about peeled garlic? How about whole garlic? How much does a, you know, does a teaspoon of mi, garlic, whe versus, um, you know, uh, versus a cup? And you know, what if it's, um, um, you know, what if it's elephant, garlic?
All those things that, that data as well as the allergens of the stuff. You know, we had nutritionists sort of analyze the, the ingredients so that when you write again, you just write like teaspoon, minced garlic. We know that that's 2.4 grams of garlic. Right? Wow. And we know if it was whole garlic that you lost, like, you know, you lost 28% of that from peeling it and taking the core out.
Right? So like, you just write teaspoon, mint, garlic, and then, you know, we now know that like you, you don't have to do anything. Even if you buy a five pound tub or whatever it will, or a, you know, 10 pound bag, it will convert that for you. And we know there's alien, right? Because it's garlic, so you already know Alien.[00:52:00]
So that should just show up as an allergen. So that's the stuff that like just happens for you, which again, like as a chef, you shouldn't need to deal with that. Yeah. It's like Right. You know, and
Xavier: as an end user, it's revolutionary to your, to really understanding what's happening. Within the recipe. How about stuff like pickups on, on, um, like pick up pickups on, on, on dishes and stuff?
Like, are you able to measure or are people often surprised, for example, with like, hey, two tablespoons of butter to sear? I'm not gonna say duck because obviously we're doing that cold, cold pan on the skin first, but you know, like, filet on, right? We're gonna see it. Good job, man. Hey, I'm doing my best, bro.
Um, or you know, we're gonna throw like, uh, we, we love to po and finish with, with butter and garlic and, you know, herb, like a little bundle of herbs. Like, are people often surprised by how much that adds up on the recipe?
Joshua: Yeah. Yes, yes, for sure. [00:53:00] It's, it's, I I would say, you know, in aggregate, the, if you just look at the, in aggregate what the industry thinks their food cost.
They're theoretical, like if you just, not like with their actual foods, but like theoretically what their food costs should be based on all their recipes. Versus what it, what it, what it really is. You know, they're off by, you know, let's just say three, four points on average of what they think, uh, if they haven't done all the work.
Right. Because there's so much that goes into, you know, if you use cabbage, you know, you lose a lot of, a lot when you take the core outta that cabbage and, and you shred it. Right. And, um, and if you're, if you're salting that cabbage, um, you lose much liquid comes out. Right? A ton. Yeah. You know, you're losing like half that cabbage, you know.
Right. You know, once, you know, once you've like cleaned it. And that's, and that's, you know, what iceberg any of these things, you know, the, the amount that you lose. And then when you a, actually think about the recipe, to your point, right? If you're gonna air as a, and you have, you know, thyme and rosemary and butter and shallots and garlic, [00:54:00] those things add up and they, and, um, and if you do it, you know, for every single one of those, then that needs to be part of the, you know, of the, of, of the cost.
And by the way, it also needs to be, they need to know, like, yeah, they need to know how they're supposed to put that in the pan. I remember a tabla, like there was like a whole bunch of like garlic skins on the meat station one day. And um, I don't remember who it was, um, but someone was like, AZA like, what's, what are we using the skins for?
There's not any flavor in that. You gotta use the actual like, you know, the, the meat of the garlic. But again, it's not just the cost. It's like, hey, this is how you should aza it. This is when you should put it in. Right. This is at what point the butter starts to foam that, like, you, you're gonna start basing those are important things that you know, you wanna teach.
Right. But it's also great to document, 'cause people might have different, you know, perspectives of how they want it to happen.
Xavier: Wow. Alright. So how long has this me's journey been for you so far, Josh? Like, so, because you've got years you've put into a database, years of experience of like, just like, I can't imagine [00:55:00] just how much time went into figuring out what does a minced table, a garlic tip, tablespoon weigh versus a rough chop.
Ver you know, like, so how many years of, I mean. Dali famously said, I'm doing ma, like, so Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua: What did Dali say? Hold on, I wanna hear
Xavier: that. So one of my favorite things, Dali, was on the Johnny Carson show and Dali, he asked, um, Johnny Carson and him we're going back and forth, and Dali was an interesting character, but in one point he said, um, he said, uh, Johnny gimme a napkin, right?
And Johnny gives him a napkin. And he took out a pen and he just did like a quick little drawing. And he's like, here you go. This for you, that's $25,000. You can go keep it or sell it. But it was like a joke, right? And Johnny goes, that just took you two seconds. How can you dare say that it's worth $25,000?
And Dali's response, which I thought was fucking awesome, he goes, [00:56:00] um, this took me a lifetime.
Joshua: And, you know what I
Xavier: mean?
Joshua: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's, I mean, there's, yeah, there's a lot of similar adage to that, but it's, it's, it's true. Uh, I do believe, you know, in, in, you know, there, it just takes time to master anything.
Yeah. And that's one of the things I love about cooking is like, like many crafts is, um, you can learn to cook something, but to, to master, you know, roasting a chicken, it just, it just, it, it, it, it cannot happen overnight. And anyway, so your, your question, we, we launched in 2021, so it's been like almost five years, like four and a half years, uh, almost five years of, of, of, of being live with customers.
But, um, yeah, I mean, this was in the works for long before that of just thinking through it. Yeah. Like building out the, the database, things like that.
Xavier: And so, I mean, I feel like the restaurant space in general when it comes to technology is evolving a lot. And I feel like every week there's a new solution out there.
Uh, you know, we, I saw you at NRAI walked the floor. There's. There's so much noise, there's so much [00:57:00] happening. It's a much lesser barrier of entry to get into it. And um, I feel like as an operator, there are a few of us, right, who have been operators, who then went to the tech side. Like what, what were some eye-opening lessons or challenges or things that you came up on that you hadn't expected?
Moving from the inside, the operator, the buyer, the one who dictates the conversation, usually to the other side now where obviously you're trying to get in front of the right people, you're trying to explain what you do, the importance, and in general, of course, just make sure that meez has a great home.
What kind of struggles or lessons have you learned?
Joshua: Yeah, well, I mean, the first struggle I think I already knew was going to happen, which was, you know, convincing. Investors and the industry that there can be very specifically recipe technology. [00:58:00] And you know, and I'm not gonna lie, there's been times throughout this five year period and maybe even recently, where it's such a challenge at all times to stay true to that.
And just, just be that where you've had customers asking for the things that back office systems do. And we have built some of them. And some of them, okay, some of them maybe we shouldn't have, some we pass off. But to, to be the best, you know, to do to, to, to accomplish the vision that I would like for this, for this, you know, company to become the universal rescue medium.
We need to be maniacally focused and be, um, diligent and have the discipline to just focus on this even when there's opportunity, even when there's short-term revenue, even when there's other things that could come about to just make sure that we stay focused on that vision. And so I'm pretty, uh, I, I've only now recently.
Even though it's five years in, truly understood the value and importance of that discipline. And we're sort of going all in now. So [00:59:00] that was, that's always been the biggest challenge. I think it's probably the biggest challenge for anybody. 'cause if you're gonna build anything great, at least for, for me, like it's has to be something that is contrarian and Right, right.
So like that, that most people are not doing and it works, you know? Yeah. Because not to say you can't be successful, um, but, you know, to have like that, that kind of impact. So that, that's, that was, that still is the biggest challenge to make sure that we stay, you know, focused on that. You know, I do think that there has, there was a, there was a, a assumption of.
Because everything that I had been through in my career and then having the, the, the luxury of like, you know, running restaurants of my own for a while and then running this really large restaurant group of an assumption of the understanding of, uh, more of the detail around calculations and things like that, that were not, um, understood widely enough.
Yeah. And so we had to adjust the u the UI because of that. So they understood what, you know, what, what it means and how to do it. Yeah. Um, [01:00:00] otherwise, you know, I think one of the, one of the biggest challenges in the restaurant space is data. Is, you know, what's, what's interesting is we have, you know, um, you know, we have the, the recipe data, right?
Which is incredibly critical to understanding your theoretical food costs, to be able to look at reporting, to be able to look at, um, all kinds of things that you would like to do. And by the way, we want you to be able to use that data however you want.
Xavier: Mm-hmm.
Joshua: You know. Unfortunately, it, it's actually challenging to even give that data, even if you want to give it to like another system to to, to give it to them.
Yeah. Um, they like, like they don't want it. And, um, it would make their systems, you know, exponentially better and or you look, I don't wanna say they don't want it, it's just, it is difficult to then have to be able to ingest the data and, and then build the infrastructure that you can do that. But, um, but it, you know, I think that is what I hope we start to see more of, and what I'm gonna, you know, spend a lot of time, you know, trying to motivate is the ability for everybody [01:01:00] to just, you know, want to push data here.
Not only because, um, it's helpful for the customer, um, but you asked about like, what's changing in the industry. Like, you know, everybody in the tech space probably hears this of like every day someone's saying, well, with AI I can do this. Right. And you can't, there's a lot you can do now building, you know.
I think if you know enough about tech, um, you, you know, that like building the architecture of the ability to do that in a scalable way over time, repeatably and accurately just using like GBT or something is like, it's a lot more complex than that. But, you know, people see that AI can do a lot and so they have, they have expectations of, of, of what you'll be able to do.
And especially at scale, there's a lot of groups that will just be able to do more. Right. And what they need is to know that, like if you are a system of record type, you know, platform for example, whether it's the sales data or the recipe data, you know, um, the purchase data that I can make sure I can [01:02:00] take that data and do what I need to, it need to, need, need to do with it.
And, um, if you can't do that, you probably, you know, it, it makes it very challenging for these operators because they can do more now. They can, they can see more and they can, you know, have control over more. And,
Xavier: and do you often, do you feel like, um. I feel like one of the most, um, crucial lessons learned having been an operator and then, you know, having, um, onboarded different types of solutions.
And even back when like hot schedules was like a novelty, you know? Um mm-hmm. How, I mean, do, how often do you feel like there, like the solutions out there have enough empathy for the end user, right? Because, you know, you and I both sell to very similar people. We're selling to, you know, accounting firms and owners and CFOs, but those aren't the people who use the platform, the people who use the platform.
You know, to your point [01:03:00] earlier, um, some of them might just be trying to make rent, some of them, um, you know, maybe, yeah. Like, do you think there's enough empathy in our industry for the, the understanding of
who
actually makes it work?
Joshua: I mean, it, it's hard for me to, to, to, to, to judge that because I don't know how these companies actually think versus what the result is.
They may want to and, and don't. Um, uh, for us it's, we have four core, you know, core values and, and the first one is operational empathy. So everything that we do is revolves around not just, you know, can you use this thing well, but you, you know, knowing that you have deliveries coming at 9:00 AM so that's not a time to talk to you.
You know, that all, all the things that happen in a, in, in a restaurant. Um, so I, I, I don't know for sure and I don't wanna try to speculate of how people think about it. Sure. I also think that, um, look, there's a lot of value from folks that have run restaurants to then build the tech for those restaurants.
Yeah. We all know that, right? [01:04:00]
Xavier: Yeah.
Joshua: Um, but I also wanna be fair to say, like, that doesn't have to be the case. Sure. Like, you, you don't have to come from restaurants. Sure. Now go do your job and like, go see what it's like. Go talk to them. Go listen to them, and. Hear what they hear, what they do. You can learn those things fairly quickly.
You might not know everything, but you'll know enough. So I don't, I, I, I wouldn't be able to prescribe, like, in, in, you know, in general there's not enough empathy. Clearly, like software is difficult to use. I think the biggest thing is to just, restaurants to me are like a Broadway show. I've never been on Broadway, but it just happens every day.
It's just like tomorrow it's coming on again. Right. People are gonna come in those seats and like, no matter what, you gotta be ready. Yeah. And that means like, it doesn't stop. Right. So there's not a lot of time, you know, to figure out things while it's, you know, it's like, it's, it's trying to figure out how to, you know, fix the car while it's, you know, while you're driving.
It's very difficult in a restaurant. And now you get to a certain scale, you start to have corporate overhead. You start to have, there's people [01:05:00] that can help and that's great. And at scale that becomes a little bit more manageable. It's still difficult. Um, but no matter what, it's gonna be challenging because you have to, you, you're, you're constantly running.
Yeah. You know, you don't have a time to say, okay, you know what, today guys, let's just not service. Yeah. And we'll just get this system set up. We're gonna Yeah. We're gonna onboard
Xavier: shoebox today. Right. Yeah, no, I get that. Well, um. Josh, where can people find you, man? Where, where, where's your how are, like, you've got a podcast, you've got, um, obviously an incredible, uh, platform, meez.
Uh, so te tell people ways that they can, that, that they can get in contact or, or learn more about meez. Well, I've decided to move to Bogus, huh?
Joshua: So, oh, sweet. About a month we'll be, no, I'm just kidding. At San Coto Hall? Yep. Um, yeah, uh, I, I don't post much, you know, 'cause I, uh, I, I don't have the time. But, uh, at, at Get Me is our handle.
My, I think my handle is, I don't even know. At, at josh l Sharky maybe, I think is what it is. [01:06:00] Okay. I put it in the, in the show notes. I, I try to, you know, post every once in a while and, um, but that's where you can find me and me and then get me. Dot com is our website. GETMEEZ. That's how you can find us.
Fantastic. How can we find you? How do I find you other than texting you on a, on a on a Tuesday? You can, you can come to Bogota, my friend. Come, come hang out. I wanna, let's get some Sancho together. Thank you for the quick turnaround. Yeah, yeah. I, I would, I would, I would like that, I would like to do a little, a little Bogota tour.
Xavier: So listen, we'll go get some ah, hiko in the whole deal. So I'll probably see you at one of these conferences sooner than later. So what are we getting for dinner, Josh? Like, what, what is a celebratory meal for, for you? If we, you know, you sign a big deal and, uh, and we're gonna go get a, a great bite together.
What, what's, what for you is like, all right, man, I'm, I'm excited. Let's go eat.
Joshua: Well, I think it depends where, where we are, but, um, uh, I, I don't love going to the, you know, [01:07:00] like to fine dining that, that often, unless you know. It really, I mean, honestly, it just depends. There's so many, there's so many great restaurants.
Um, there is, so, so, I mean, I, I'm a huge fan of like, you know, Thai and Vietnamese, so I'll always crush that. Um, you
Xavier: just read my mind. I think we, I think I have the spot for us. I mean, Vegas, it's probably the next time I'll see you and I think we need to put a little time aside for Oh yeah. For some drunken drunken prawn noodles and, and, uh, oh yeah, that's, I'll do that all day long.
It's escaping me the name of the spot that I love so much in, in Vegas. They're like super famous. Ugh. Anyway,
Joshua: there's a lot of super famous spots in Vegas, but um, I thi Is it Lotus?
Xavier: Is it Lotus of Ion?
Joshua: They're, they're there, yeah. Alright. Um, there, there's a lot of them. And then when we go to, you know, it's funny, I actually had, um, a really good Peruvian food in, in Bogota.
I dunno if it's, if he still has the restaurant there, but Gas stone, it [01:08:00] closed, um, what's his name? Gas.
Xavier: Street. Oh, it closed. It closed. They still have a bunch, obviously in Lima, but there are some incredible restaurants in Bogota, so we'll definitely hit that. Alright, and last thing, Josh, um, are you a coffee lover?
Okay. And are you a chocolate lover? Because Raquel, um, as a very proud Rola and Colombian. Um, wants to make sure that every single guest from the podcast has an opportunity to taste some of the fruits of, of, of, of Columbia. So tell me about your chocolate preferences and your coffee preferences so that we can make sure you're set up with That's very, with your stuff.
That's,
Joshua: that's very nice of you. I'm both, I love, I love coffee and I love chocolate. Um, I eat chocolate every single day. Yeah. And I have coffee every day. So Are, are you like a dark chocolate kind of guy? Do you like chocolate with I, I like it all. I wanna be like, you know, I try to like to Oh yeah. Dark chocolate because, good for you.
It's here for you. Yeah. And it's good. But I, I'll crush the milk chocolate too, you know? I like it. Okay. I like it all.
Xavier: Alright. So you're, so you're an [01:09:00] open-minded chocolate guy. And how about coffee? Do you like a darker roast? Do you like medium roast? Do you like more acidic? Do you like more like, what's your style there?
I like
Joshua: medium roast. Okay. And, uh, I, I only drink black coffee. Okay. Mostly just 'cause I have a of a, um, just don't drink a lot of dairy. Okay. But, uh, yeah, I have, I have like black coffee every morning.
Xavier: Perfect. Well then, uh, we'll be in touch for that and uh Okay. Thank you for being a part of, uh, 86 reason, man.
I'm, I'm glad to hear that your insanity, uh, is, is tempered right with, with you don't make your own ketchup and I think that by itself speaks a lot to who you are. Thank you for that.
Joshua: I appreciate it. This was, uh, this was great. I, I'm, I'm glad we had a chance to catch up and I'll probably see, I don't think I'll see you, but I'll see your team in about two hours.
Xavier: Alright, perfect. Thanks Josh. I appreciate you ma'am. All right. Yep. Cheers. 86 Reason podcast was brought you by over Easy Office outsourced bookkeeping solution.
