[00:05:19]
So That's what led me to, you know, culinary.
[00:05:23] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. It's so funny. Like, you know, I meet actually a lot of people that practice law or at least went to school a lot, maybe they took the bar where they didn't, and then they sort of do something else. But there seems like there's a lot. My dad was actually, I mean, he passed away many years ago, but he was an attorney.
[00:05:38] Mike Traud:
People love it. I always tell people it's one of those degrees that you may not, you know, physically practice law in a law firm, but there's so many takeaways that you can apply to all these different fields. A lot of what I do has the background of the legal aspects.
[00:05:57] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I think the cool thing that I like about the practice of law is, I mean, really the main metric of success is how well can you construct an argument?
[00:06:08]
You know, cause all the information's there, so like, it teaches you how to think. You know, you have to think through the same exact context or, you know, content through a different lens.
[00:06:16] Mike Traud:
Yeah, there's so much, the mental, and then it's also the writing and, Yeah. It all kind of constructing these arguments and yeah, it's picking up on details and things that you can catch and utilize to your advantage.
[00:06:31] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, you bailed on that at some point, started cooking. How did that happen?
[00:06:37] Mike Traud:
I always had a passion for, uh, food, you know, this is pre, you know, Food Network, all that stuff, watching shows on, you know, PBS and even the beginning of the Food Network. Do you remember the shows you watched?
[00:06:53]
Yeah, like the beginning, like, I forget, David Rosengarten, shows like that.
[00:06:56]
Back when there wasn't like so much programming. Yeah, yeah. And I remember taking culinary classes in high school, you know, went the traditional route of college. And even in college I did my demonstration speech on how to Do creme brulee and what, for what class was that? We had to take a speech class and you had to do a demonstration speech.
[00:07:17]
So I did that's funny, but yeah, even practicing, you know, going to law school. It was one of those things that after passing for a couple of years, I said, if I don't, you know, give this a shot, it's something that I'm going to regret. So at that point I was, went back and enrolled in Johnson and Wales and their Charlotte campus and started the whole culinary path.
[00:07:39] Josh Sharkey:
Nice. I went to JW in Providence.
[00:07:41] Mike Traud:
Oh, nice.
[00:07:42] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it was the same time.
[00:07:44] Mike Traud:
Yeah, mine was 2006 to 2007.
[00:07:49] Josh Sharkey:
Oh. You know, I was 99, 2000, something like that. So in 99, 2000 great campus,
[00:07:54] Mike Traud:
Great schools you know, enjoyed my experience.
[00:07:57] Josh Sharkey:
Yep. So, God, so you, you left law went culinary school and then did you start cooking in, in Philly or,
[00:08:04] Mike Traud:
Yeah, so I came back. I knew I wanted to do pasta, so I came back. You know, I wanted to work for Mark Fetree came back, this was back in the day when people don't even remember, like you would write letters and hope to get a response, multiple letters. And then I eventually got a response that, you know, they're opening up their second restaurant, Osteria.
[00:08:26]
Did I have any interest in, you know, coming up and staging for a day and seeing. So I came out, drove up from Charlotte. Oh, well. Staged. A couple of days later I got offered a position, so I moved back to the area I'm originally from, Allentown, which is like an hour north of Philly, and took the job at Osteria, and then, you know, proceeded to work between Osteria and Vetri for the next four years.
[00:08:50]
Yeah, what was it like working for Marc? Amazing, I mean, I wanted to learn pasta. Osteria, it was a bigger animal, it was new, you know, so much was going on there, so they gave me that glimpse into like a bigger restaurant. But then going over to Vetri was like, to go and do pasta there was like grad school for pasta because I went from, you know, a bigger line at Osteria to Vetri is literally, and when I worked there, four cooks, six days a week, like, that's it.
[00:09:22]
Like your station is your station. Yep. You make the pasta, you roll the pasta, you cook the pasta. Like, it's, you know, it's a lot of ownership.
[00:09:32] Josh Sharkey:
That's great, man. You know, it's also not common. You know, like I remember even great spots like. Babbo, you know, you have the, there's the dude in the back that's making all the pasta and the ducks are just, you know, glazing into it.
[00:09:43] Mike Traud:
It had that ownership factor. It's like you, you touched every element. So you had kind of more care because you saw, you know, from cracking the eggs to the pasta to putting the pasta out. Like you, you know, you took pride in every step that it wasn't like, Oh, somebody else is going to deal with this. It's like, no, this is your baby.
[00:10:03]
And you're going to. You know, watch it grow up and see it through the whole life cycle.
[00:10:08] Josh Sharkey:
How did they break up? Like, did one person do extruded and one person do filled and one person's like, how did that work?
[00:10:13] Mike Traud:
So when I worked the pasta station there, you, you extruded, you rolled, you did.
[00:10:20] Josh Sharkey:
You just did everything.
[00:10:21] Mike Traud:
Yeah. You had, you know, you had your six baskets and prepping and so, yeah, it was a lot of work, but it's something that I wouldn't, you know, take away because I learned so much. Yeah. You still make pasta a lot at home. Yeah. No. I think that's the thing with a lot of, some chefs, it's just like you, you just, you know, you get home and you, you find your staples and your things that work and.
[00:10:43] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I have two kids. My, my son doesn't eat a lot of things, but if he makes the pasta, then he'll like, he'll eat it. Eat it because he's playing with it. So I find making, I find that we make more fresh pasta at home just because we still eat it.
[00:10:58] Mike Traud:
Oh yeah. No, I'm, I'm single and I live by myself and no kids.
[00:11:02]
So it's kind of like, well, you know, there's no point in making these huge meals. And plus Philly has a great food scene that I really, you know, people that I worked with have now have restaurants. So I like to go out and support them, especially the way they support with the conference.
[00:11:16] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, well, I'm gonna be selfish today, and maybe we'll just jump into that and Alright, be selfish.
[00:11:21]
So, obviously we're going to the, to the Chef's Conference, super stoked. I mean, so much stuff going on. We're obviously gonna talk a bunch about that. I haven't been to Philly in, I think, like, two decades. Oh, wow. And It's changed. Yeah, well, I'm sure. And I, you know, I travel a lot, and I promised my wife this time I was gonna come along and bring the kids.
[00:11:38]
So, actually the kids and my wife are coming.
[00:11:40] Mike Traud:
Let me know, like, what you're doing. You know, there's family activities that, you know, being that I visit Philadelphia as a partner, if there's any way I can help.
[00:11:49] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, I'd love that.
[00:11:50]
Well, I mean, first question, where do we eat? So, families, I mean, there's so much.
[00:11:58]
How old are your kids? They're young, so actually you could probably just pretend, whatever. I mean, we'll, my wife and I will probably do a date night, like one of the nights, and then we'll take the kids somewhere. But just generally, like, where do you like to eat in Philly?
[00:12:08] Mike Traud:
It's all Kind of like time and frame, like there's so many different pockets and neighborhoods between like Mexican cuisine, Vietnamese, fine dining, center city, so you can find like kind of.
[00:12:22]
Anything that you want, and it's also in an area that's manageable and getting around, which I think is a big bonus. Pretty, uh, prevalent there? Yeah, very prevalent, very easy. Philadelphia is not, it's not like you get in an Uber and it's like you need a 30 minute ride somewhere. Yeah, that's cool. Like, 15 minutes, you can be where you need to be.
[00:12:44] Josh Sharkey:
Well, I think we're going to stay by, is it University City? Is that like the area where it's called?
[00:12:48] Mike Traud:
Yeah. But even if like University City is like not, and you'll see it when you get, it's like, it's not far off from Center City. Like it's, literally a jump over the river. So, you know a lot about Philly now.
[00:13:01]
What do you, what do you love most about the city? Sometimes it gets a bad rap, but I think it's very friendly, walkable, historical, you know, and there's, So much going on in food in the city. There's an appreciation for the food scene. Yeah, it's grown a lot. Yeah, and there's uh, I mean different areas and pockets have grown in the past, you know, 5 10 years and a lot of it spurs development for chefs to come in and, you know, transform neighborhoods and areas.
[00:13:32] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Is there anything that you're super excited about that's opened up recently or that's changing?
[00:13:36] Mike Traud:
There's nothing that really jumps out at me that's opened up, you know, recently, but I think a lot of the restaurants have taken their, you know, step up, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday stepped up.
[00:13:47] Mike Traud:
Palizzi continues to be a great, you know, standard for Italian cuisine. All Michael Solomonov’s restaurants, you know, they all, you know, shine and continue to, you know, transform the food scene.
[00:14:00] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, well, let's start talking about the conference because obviously it's coming up soon because one thing I want to ask you is how Philly impacts, how this conference runs, but let's get to that later because at first, just like high level, you know, why did you, why did you start this thing?
[00:14:14]
Cause it's been like 11 years now. I know you missed one year because of COVID, but like 11 years running, like why did you start this conference?
[00:14:21] Mike Traud:
Uh, you know, when I made the transition from culinary to education, there was a period where I was. an adjunct professor at Drexel University's culinary program, teaching culinary, but also teaching like hospitality classes, like hospitality law.
[00:14:38]
And throughout that time, I could see that there was a big gap between industry and education and that there was a change going on in the field. That people in education didn't really kind of comprehend what was going on within the industry, but there's also a segment of the industry that was looking down upon education.
[00:15:00]
And I thought there was a way to kind of combine them both and really kind of surround students with the The right perspective and really kind of bring everybody together in one setting to kind of educate, but also talk about the issues that were, you know, extremely important in the field that needed, you know, to be discussed.
[00:15:18]
So that's, you know, how it originally kicked off. And when it originally started, it was just a lot of Philly, you know, the majority of my participants were Philadelphia, but as conferences grow, I think. The main benefit is meeting new people and introducing new people to your market and changing the dialogue and always having the dialogue evolve.
[00:15:39]
So, as it grew, it started to bring in more national and international people to the area, and I think that's kind of a great value that it brings to Philadelphia in that it brings in new voices and it allows people in our city to engage with national and international leaders.
[00:15:55] Josh Sharkey:
So, hold on, just kind of going back to that, the gap between education and the industry, industry and the education.
[00:16:01]
My, what my brain is saying, is thinking, is, you know, obviously there's like this adage of like, you don't need culinary school. And then when you're in culinary school, the, you know, like, what are the biggest gaps, you know, where, and I guess maybe we start with what does the industry get wrong about education?
[00:16:18]
And obviously a lot of us went to culinary school, but what are the, what are those gaps that you feel like you were trying to close?
[00:16:23] Mike Traud:
I think sometimes industry. It feels like going to education is a waste of time, but I think the growth and development that people go through school is going to be beneficial in the long run, especially when we talk about the leadership and managerial styles.
[00:16:37]
So the really kind of develop those interpersonal skills and how to lead. I think you will learn within the right education institution, especially taking, you know, business courses and leadership. And I think sometimes industry needs to see, yeah. How the kitchens have changed, you know, cause a lot of professors, you know, have their industry experience, but it may have been, you know, decades ago and the kitchen has totally changed the whole dynamic, you know, way people dress, all this stuff.
[00:17:11]
You know, and I think having their perspective in place, you know, both sides can help each other out in fostering dialogue and creating a better environment for the future of our industry.
[00:17:26] Josh Sharkey:
The wheels are spinning here because what's so interesting about culinary school, at least, you know, for me, I didn't really learn a lot about.
[00:17:34]
Business and leadership. I learned a lot of like really old techniques for, you know, Veau Blanc, like Blanquette de Veau or something like that, that I kind of had to unlearn and then learn again. And you're right. There's like this huge opportunity of like the things that, that we don't learn that we should.
[00:17:52]
Especially as you start getting into kitchens is, yeah, leadership. How do you talk to people? How do you get them to, you know, how do you understand them? How do you become a good leader and a good manager? And what are unit economics and what is an EBITDA like things like that? We don't learn any of that.
[00:18:06]
Then you jump into a kitchen. It's almost like a dynamic where there's where the education is all of that. And then, Hey, go, we're going to connect you to these restaurants and come back and we'll help you, Synthesize a little bit of what you learned when you were, when you was staging there.
[00:18:19] Mike Traud:
And I think it within the culinary education platform, like there are, you know, underlining lessons of leadership and management in that you're all on the same level with your fellow students.
[00:18:30]
So you can, you know, work on those skills and interactions. But I think there's a better system that, you know, when both sides are engaged to create. The better end product that we're all looking for the future of our industry, we're all looking to grow it, and I don't think one side has the answer, I think both sides working together can create the answer to produce, you know, a future of industry, a better worker, more educated worker, that's going to really help the industry grow in the future, especially in a time when now when You know, chefs are complaining about the lack of, you know, people in the workforce and engagement from the workers now.
[00:19:14]
So bringing everybody together is going to help solve the problem.
[00:19:18] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay, cool. So, so that was sort of the impetus for the conference. It's now grown into a lot more than that. Obviously it's just, I mean, a bunch of really awesome panels, a bunch of chefs and not just chefs, but food photographers, writers, stylists, everything, everybody involved with the hospitality industry.
[00:19:35]
It's really cool. You know, I actually admittedly. This is really sad to say, I haven't been yet, but I'm going this year. I'm really excited and I'm excited to keep going after this, but I'm curious to hear from you. Like, what's the goal of everybody attending? What should they leave? You know, what should they leave with?
[00:19:49] Mike Traud:
I think when they come, it provides an environment for open dialogue and conversation. Nothing, I think truly gets solved at the conference, but the conversations continue, and I think that's where the growth aspect is, in that you can continue to engage, you can continue to meet new people, network, build connections, and all this kind of thing.
[00:20:19]
continues to grow and continues past the conference ends, but dialogues and the connection continue.
[00:20:26] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Do you have ways of like, of how you sort of follow up on that? Like, Hey, is everybody connecting? Is that, how's this network, you know, going?
[00:20:36] Mike Traud:
I don't have like structural, but you can see it when, you know, even through social media where people, you know, build collaborations, but I also hear it from participants when they return, they say, well, this is the conference where I can meet and engage other individuals.
[00:20:54]
I can have conversations, I can grow, I can, you know, they bring their sous chef next year, they bring a head chef because they see that there's a value for them to kind of. Engage in dialogue because there is ample time throughout the conference to have conversations. Our panels aren't a panel on the stage and Nobody gets to ask questions, the format set up that everybody can ask questions, everybody can engage, and these conversations continue in the breaks, you know, I find it every year we're like, say the panel ends at 10:15, the next panel ends at 10:30, we're literally having to politely ask our panelists, like, Hey, can we take this, these conversations into the, into the break room because we have another panel that's about to begin.
[00:21:50] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:21:51] Mike Traud:
And I think that's the engagement. That's the enjoyment because a lot of times with these chef events, it's requiring them to do food. Whereas my conferences require them to speak on what they love, their opinions, their thoughts, and on topics that they are really focused on. Yeah.
[00:22:13] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, you know, speaking of the panels, you know, I've been on a bunch of these panels.
[00:22:17]
I've never moderated one. So this is actually the first time I moderate a panel at the Chef Con, so I'm really excited. I'm also really excited, just serendipitously, like the panel that you put together on menu innovation is just, I'm super passionate about the idea of like, how does everybody iterate?
[00:22:31]
How do they think about the idea of iteration? creation and just creating new menu items. And so I'm excited to sort of dig into that topic with some really incredible chefs.
[00:22:41] Mike Traud:
You have an all star lineup of when you talk about like Menu innovation in the background of these individuals, you know, Ariel Johnson used to be the, you know, the head of Noma fermentation lab, Rosio Sanchez used to be the pastry chef at Noma, Thomas Frabel, who's currently with Noma projects, and then Lyan, Mr. Lyan
[00:23:01]
from London being like this cocktail innovator, like you have amazing voices that I think it's, you know, the moderating is going to be easy. It's like tossing, you know, a ball out and
[00:23:11] Josh Sharkey:
yeah, yeah.
[00:23:13] Mike Traud:
Yeah. They're all, you know, excited and, you know, I think even just talking to Ariel, she's like, I feel like I've had this conversation with these individuals so many different times that it hasn't been in front of public and I think that's a good thing.
[00:23:26]
Especially because you're going to have dynamics in the audience who are going to throw questions out.
[00:23:30] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, that's actually really good to know. I'm sorry, I'm actually making some notes here because that's really, I'm sure they have. And what's, what I think are the best sort of representations of panels or talks or.
[00:23:43]
Any of these conversations are when they're just organic and this, this thing would have happened anyways, and you just have to create a medium around it, whether it's a panel or a podcast.
[00:23:53] Mike Traud:
Yeah. People are going to have an inside view of these conversations that normally are, you know, conducted behind closed doors because especially when you think about the people in Noma and their background and creating menus, like they all have their different insights that are going to, you know, shine in this panel.
[00:24:09] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, absolutely. So, I guess a question for you is, you know, you could have a thousand panels, you only have four days of a conference, you know, once every 365 days of the year. How do you choose what panels to do?
[00:24:22] Mike Traud:
That's the real tough part.
[00:24:24] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah,
[00:24:26] Mike Traud:
it's finding the topics that are important, finding the speakers that you want to have a voice within the conference, hoping that the topic and the speaker go together, hoping that the speaker is available, narrowing it down to figuring out what's going to work, what panel, the likelihood of creating it's going to happen, which panels do you just pun on for a future year?
[00:24:58]
It's also in planning panels in July and August for something that's happening in April. You also have to leave a little buffer room for the, something current to come up. A topic that should be discussed and figuring out the right time frame to say like, I'm done with these panels, you know, do I have time to mold it a little way?
[00:25:26]
Do I have time to throw another speaker in?
[00:25:29] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Do you find that this year, is there anything popping up where you're like, I got to get this into the conference?
[00:25:36] Mike Traud:
Luckily, nothing has popped up for good or bad, you know, it's always great when something pops up because then you have the opportunity to make something really hyper, you know, current that then brings in another problem with like, okay, now how do I juggle the Agenda to fit this in.
[00:25:57]
How do I find the room to get this speaker, to have the speaker, you know, arranging travel and hotel, the last minute for a current topic always adds another dimension as well.
[00:26:15] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. You know, at a high level, I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on this, this year. What, what should people expect from the conference?
[00:26:22] Mike Traud:
I think they should expect. You know, the right engagement, the right conversations, and there's a level of authenticity to it, where it's not just the people on the panels, it's the people in the audience, they, they play a role. They, I find that, you know, a lot of times. The participants of the conference don't just do a panel and disappear.
[00:26:48]
Yeah. They then find their way into the audience and
[00:26:53] Josh Sharkey:
Do you help facilitate that? Because that's not always. There's oftentimes obviously panels where like, you show up two minutes before, do the panel, and then you're gone two minutes after.
[00:27:01] Mike Traud:
I don't put any, as I like to say throughout, and, you know, my team gets annoyed, everything is an invitation and not an obligation.
[00:27:09] Josh Sharkey:
Mhm.
[00:27:10] Mike Traud:
You know, I want people to come and attend everything and participate. I think the people who agree to participate, you know, enjoy the conference. They enjoy the authenticity. They want to support their fellow chefs on their panels. They want to participate. And they also see that there's a value in the topics in the dialogue.
[00:27:31]
So, Cool. Yeah. They're not just, you know, they don't do their 45 minutes and say see you later. I'm out of here. Yeah, they're and there's enough engagement There's things going on. I think the food and beverage that we offer at the conference is top notch So I like to say it's like a circus atmosphere, you know in that nothing stops.
[00:27:52]
It's It kicks off, there's three rooms running concurrently, there's break rooms, there's spaces where you can jump out and have continued conversations, but there's also, you know, things going on in each room, and I think the individuals who participate enjoy that because it allows them to also connect with their panelists and other participants that they don't get to see, you know, throughout their daily lives either.
[00:28:18] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:29:28]
Yeah, I love that you facilitated creating a really good conference that they want to stay at. You know, anecdotally, everyone that I know that have, that has gone has just said nothing but great things about just really enjoying it and just having a really, you know, unique experience. I am curious, is it?
[00:29:44]
Shit ton of work to put these things on. I am. And look, you don't have to answer. I'm going to start. I want to ask a little bit about the economics of this. Because I'm just very curious. But before we get to that, like, I know it must be a ton of work, man. I'm sure like the whole time, all you're thinking about is every little detail.
[00:29:58]
What's, you know, what's happening and making sure everything is, you know, going off without a hitch. But like, what are you like most excited about? And what do you like? What do you like? You must love doing this because you keep doing it. So what do you like? What are you most excited about for this year?
[00:30:10]
And then generally, like, what do you love most about this thing?
[00:30:13] Mike Traud:
It's a puzzle. It's putting together a puzzle that I hope all the pieces come together over those dates. It's also exciting in that there's people that I don't know, people that I haven't met, you know, and the thrill of being able to bring them into a community and offer their voice and engagement to people.
[00:30:31]
I come from the perspective like, you know, 15 years ago as a line cook in Philly, and I would love to engage with these individuals. And if I can bring these in and maybe there's a line cook who's like, I'm not going to be able to, you know, see Tom Colicchio speak in a room that's going to have 50 to 75 people, you know what I mean?
[00:30:54] Mike Traud:
There's going to be that level of one on one authenticity. So if I can bring those people in and engage, and a lot of what I do, I like to do, is like, I try to hold events in time frames that are available for young cooks. With the, you know, the panels that you're participating in on Friday. Those are 9-12.
[00:31:13] Josh Sharkey: Yeah,
[00:31:14] Mike Traud:
a cook can come in, get educated, can learn, can have breakfast and can go work their shift and may have, you know, come away with the takeaway that they can bring to their kitchen that they can have a discussion and stuff like that. I offered to restaurant groups at a discount because I want to engage the future of the industry.
[00:31:35]
I want to engage these restaurants to have them, you know, Foster dialogue in the kitchen, because I believe education is so worthwhile to the future of our industry, you know, otherwise, like to have somebody like Alain Ducasse come and like his memoirs gets released on Tuesday after the conference, but doing a pre release, you know,
[00:31:56] Josh Sharkey:
It's so cool. Can you talk a little about that? Just so people know, because I only recently learned that was happening. I think it's on Saturday, right?
[00:32:02] Mike Traud:
Yeah, it's on Saturday morning, April 13th. It's, you know, Alain going to be in conversation with Jeff Gordinier. Who's, you know, a longstanding, well respected food journalist.
[00:32:13]
And Alain has his memoirs coming out that Tuesday after, but he's going to do a pre, you know, event. I don't believe he's doing many other events in the States. We were just lucky enough to the dates to coincide and to have the opportunity to sit and listen to this legend. I mean, he has the second most amount of Michelin stars in the world.
[00:32:35]
He alone has 21. Which is crazy, insane, insane, and to have him in a room speaking of his career is nuts to begin with.
[00:32:51] Josh Sharkey:
Did you just send him an email? How did that happen?
[00:32:53] Mike Traud:
Just, you know, it's one of those things where you continue to build a conference that opportunities kind of present themselves and booksellers and book agents realize the value of being in front of the audience.
[00:33:08]
The people in this conference and opening up to the community and there's been, you know, demonstrating it from having, you know, Massimo Battura to Mashama Bailey to David Zilber to having these high profile book events. And again, this book event is on a Saturday morning at 10 a.m. A lot of these, you know, high profile book events with chefs are at night and the line cooks are not getting off.
[00:33:34] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, unless you're on a brunch shift, but that's, yeah, exactly
[00:33:37] Mike Traud:
what this it's a 10 o'clock to 11:30 come in, have breakfast, get a book, get your book signed and go about the rest of your day. So to have, you know, easily one of the top five most influential chefs in the world to come and sit and chat. And it's also, these chats are done in a space that's intimate.
[00:34:00]
I always like to think it's like the events around the conference are like seeing. Your favorite rock star at like a small club. There's an intimacy to it. Seeing Alain Ducasse speak in a room that's gonna hold 200 people is going to allow that, you know, opportunity and engagement that doesn't exist elsewhere.
[00:34:21]
So what's the venue? The venue is the Study Hotel. Which is, you know, has a nice conference space, multiple rooms, but none of the rooms are so large that people get lost. It's the type of room where there's engagement. It allows question and answering. It allows eye contact. And I think, you know, the people who are speaking enjoy that intimacy.
[00:34:50]
They enjoy the banter from, you know, the people in the audience. And that sometimes the moderators kind of plays referee because conversations will go between a member of the audience and somebody in the panel that the dialogue and the conversation is going to go in so many different directions.
[00:35:10] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:35:11]
That's another note for me. What do you look for as the moderator's job and what should they make sure to look out for?
[00:35:21] Mike Traud:
A strategy to planning the panels and trying to avoid the person who's going to be a wild card. The person who's going to hijack it. Oh, yeah. Does that happen? It's, it has happened. You try to recognize who's going to, in selecting these panels, you want the right individuals who are going to foster dialogue in, in authentic, but not so much an argumentative fashion.
[00:35:47] Mike Traud:
Yeah. You want cordial discourse about the issues and the topics, and you don't want people getting angry at each other and, you know, Yeah. Yeah. It's supposed to be a productive space for these conversations on tough issues.
[00:36:02] Josh Sharkey:
Well, I think luckily the menu innovation isn't very controversial. You never know.
[00:36:07]
You never know what's going to be controversial. That's true. That's true. That's true. Maybe somebody's going to get really angry about sous vide. Or something. But I imagine one of the, one of the key characteristics that's necessary is that the moderation raters should really care about the topic that they're moderating.
[00:36:21] Mike Traud:
Well, and I think that's an important point. It seems that in other conferences, you can tell who paid to be a moderator. Yeah. And it becomes an infomercial versus somebody who cares about the industry and the topic and is willing to dive into it. And it comes prepared.
[00:36:44] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:36:45] Mike Traud:
A lot of the times I pick many of the other panels will have journalists as moderators because.
[00:36:50]
Yeah. Yeah. They know how to ask questions, know how to follow up. And the same thing with having people who do podcasts, they know how to spur dialogue. Having a celebrity chef may be noteworthy and great, but it doesn't mean that person's qualified to run in, keep a panel functioning for 45 minutes to an hour.
[00:37:11] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah,
[00:37:11] Mike Traud:
Absolutely.
[00:37:12] Josh Sharkey:
I've seen those too as well. I think one of the things that bothers me the most is when they're like, they clearly have no idea what the
[00:37:19] Mike Traud:
Or they don't even know who the speakers are.
[00:37:21] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, or they haven't done any research into who the people are.
[00:37:23] Mike Traud:
Yeah, like they'll mispronounce their names or where they work, or, you know, and it's just like, this, and like five minutes into it, you're like, this isn't going anywhere.
[00:37:35] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah well, what are, I mean, there's a million of these challenges, I'm sure, like launching one of these events, but. You know, you're getting closer to it. So there are a lot more in your face. Now, what are the biggest challenges that come up every year that you're like, man, this never goes away.
[00:37:49] Mike Traud:
This is so hard. Travel, communication, because it's maintaining communication with so many different individuals. And I handle all the, you know, emails with talent because I feel like that's my duty, my responsibility. You know, if they're going to donate their time to participate, the least I can do is answer their emails in a timely fashion.
[00:38:13]
Make sure that they have the best experience with the conference. So on a yearly basis, it's, you know, the hotel room block always becomes an issue, you know, cause a lot of these people are busy and they don't, they can't finalize their travel right away. Yeah. So making sure that, you know, room spaces are available.
[00:38:38]
It's always, you know, last minute reservations at restaurants. Where I have to, you know, send out the bat signal and get, you know, calling favors to see if I can get these people in different restaurants. Just little things like that. But after 10, 11 years, you start to know where the problems are going to be.
[00:38:58]
So I kind of have an outline of what needs to be done, you know, of a rough sketch of what the conference is. And I can kind of paint within those barriers. So.
[00:39:12] Josh Sharkey:
The economics, what are the economics like of an event like this? How do you fund it? Does this become a moneymaker or is it, you know, more of a thing that can kind of fulfill itself to keep doing it year after year?
[00:39:23] Mike Traud:
Well I think it becomes you know, it's a job like any other job. It's not that you throw together a conference and over a weekend, it's, it's planning that people sometimes fail to recognize that it is, it is a job. It requires so much work, you know, economics. It's like, I'm looking at a hotel room block that I have 75 people, you know, that's a hotel bill that's going to be paid for.
[00:39:55]
Yeah. Yeah. Then you also pay for the travel for all the guests. And my conference isn't one where you're speaking on, say you're speaking on Monday, say, yeah, you can arrive on Sunday. Every participant, no matter when, You're speaking can arrive on Friday.
[00:40:17] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So you got four days of travel and hotel and whatever else for everyone, no matter what,
[00:40:23] Mike Traud:
yeah, no matter what. So they can, you know, enjoy their time in Philadelphia.
[00:40:28] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:40:29] Mike Traud:
And I think that's the cost benefit analysis for them. Cause at the end of the day, I'm really just asking for them 45 minutes to sit on a panel and not asking for a thousand burgers. And providing, you know, the opportunities for the participants to engage in a network because a lot of these chefs don't get the opportunity to meet their colleagues in other areas.
[00:40:55]
So it provides an opportunity that they can go out to dinner with their other chefs. Same thing with the journalists from different publications. This provides an opportunity for them to connect with their other journalists, and it becomes an opportunity that on a yearly basis, they know they can all.
[00:41:13]
Get together and, you know, break bread and discuss their fields. So conversations are happening outside these, you know, panels that are, you know, beneficial networking is happening at, you know, various participant and VIP functions that allow for the continual growth and engagement within the industry.
[00:41:36] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. It sort of, you know, takes on a life of its own. You know, you're kind of creating a place and a medium, but then from there, all kinds of things can spur that you might not even plan for.
[00:41:46] Mike Traud:
Yeah. In economics, it's like, you know, you have to hire a creative director. You have to hire a website person, you have to hire a social media, you hire PR people, you know, somebody to do
[00:41:59]
the filming, you hire somebody to run the show, like, these are all, you know, finances that you need to take into account and then there's an art to dealing with sponsors and sponsorships and finding people.
[00:42:13]
The right sponsors, there's money out there that might be easier to get. I think there's an authenticity to the sponsors that I choose to deal with because I feel like the people, you know, the segment of the industry, the participants are using those sponsors.
[00:42:31] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. hundred percent.
[00:42:32] Mike Traud:
It's not finding like this mass produced corporate thing that doesn't reflect the nature of my participants.
[00:42:40]
They might be able to write a larger check, devalues the brand and the authenticity around the conference.
[00:42:48] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot easier to get a check from MasterCard probably than, you know, than a bunch of smaller ones like, like us. And I'll say for myself, independently of the fact that I'm just super stoked about this conference as a chef and as somebody in the industry that loves, you know, all the things that we do.
[00:43:03] Josh Sharkey:
I was really grateful with my company, meez, to be able to sponsor this because it's exactly who we, you know. So you work with every day and that's what
[00:43:12] Mike Traud:
that and with sponsors is providing, you know, the
touch points that they come away saying like, this was worth my investment. I always tell people like, this is my first year in the rebrand and doing it on my own that like I'm a startup to like, I understand, like, I'm not going to, you know, gouge people and I'm going to offer.
[00:43:33]
I want sponsors to walk away happy. Saying like, this was worth my investment. I want to invest next year. And I think a lot, you see that I have the same sponsors year in and year out. Yep. Because they see the value and they get, you know, what they want out of it.
[00:43:49] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. And it's just a, you know, it's very similar cultures and people, which is also great for, you know, for us, my company, like a lot of the people on my team have been going to that conference for years anyways, as chefs or restaurant owners. And it's exciting. We actually did, by the way, we just, this is pretty cool. I had these made in time for your conference, these scales.
[00:44:11]
I have one for you as well.
[00:44:14] Mike Traud:
No, that'd be great. And yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, even for, as you said, like your clients are there, it provides not just participants and like the attendees, but it sponsors the ability to do all their networking, to see all the people that they want to see in one spot, you can go grab drinks with clients and you can dinners and you can have coffee.
[00:44:38]
And I don't, you know, I don't feel like any of the parts, I get this all the time, it's just like, people tend to say like. That the participants are so accessible,
[00:44:52]
none of them aren't approachable. They're all willing to have conversations. They all, you know, I remember last year, one person was like, I saw so and so speak at this conference. and disappeared afterwards. But I saw this person at your conference, they spoke, and then I saw them in every other session.
[00:45:11] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. That's, I mean, Mike, that's huge, man, because I also see that all the time. And I think it's, you're so right. It's also why it's so important to build this authenticity and community into these types of conferences, because if the panelist is leaving right after. There's a reason for that, right?
[00:45:27]
Whereas if you've created an environment where like they were just like want to stay because this is great and all of our people are here and we want to hear these other conversations and we want to go in the crowd and talk, you know, then just a testament to like, I think that's how these need to be.
[00:45:42]
Didn't know that I was hoping you could share with everybody is are there more tickets? I actually asked you about where it was because funny if I said I asked my assistant to book a hotel and like we couldn't find on the website.
[00:45:53] Mike Traud:
So yes, so it's at the study hotel in west, uh, university city in philadelphia So there are tickets limited amount of tickets for the expert day in Alain Ducasse Extremely limited for the panel day.
[00:46:06]
I think last I checked there was roughly 15 tickets left. Gotcha Isn't there multiple panel days The main panel day is on Monday and that's where there's multiple panels running concurrently the other days the panels are just One offshoots. So there's gotcha versus the main panel day on Monday is kind of choose your own adventure
[00:46:29] Josh Sharkey:
Mm hmm,
[00:46:30] Mike Traud:
you know, you got to figure out which room you want to go into and you know It's always interesting because figuring out, because each room's a different size, you may think that, you know, what you have, you know, your finger on the pulse of what people are interested in and you try to judge the panels on, you know, based on those sizes, but inevitably you get something wrong in this, you know, the small room is completely packed and people are sitting on the floor and, but that's the thing, it's the authenticity, it's the buy in that, you know, Within the hospitality industry there, there's a willingness like, sure, I'll sit on the floor.
[00:47:07]
This isn't bad.
[00:47:08] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah,
[00:47:10] Josh Sharkey:
It’s the chef conference. Yeah. What's the website? The chef conference.com. Cool. Yeah, if we can do like the little, I don't usually do this, but this is pretty timely. 'cause this is actually, this episode's gonna come out two days before the conference, so there might not be Oh, nice.
[00:47:22]
Any tickets left? Uh, or it's coming out the Tuesday before, before the conference.
[00:47:27] Mike Traud:
And then we have our opening night with two panels, one being on sobriety. That's Sunday night, April 14th, one on sobriety in the restaurant industry, moderated by Andrew Zimmern with panelists Sean Brock, Ashley Christensen, Gregory Gourdet and Michael Solomonov. and then there's a fireside chat after that between, uh, Jeff Gordinier and Phil Rosenthal on the evolution of food TV.
[00:47:50] Josh Sharkey:
That's awesome, man. I'm so excited for this.
[00:47:52] Mike Traud:
This is such a cool event. Yeah, so there's so many different things to go see, but it's also a great time to, a great reason to come to Philadelphia to eat and drink and, you know, make a full food weekend out of it.
[00:48:05] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, you're in the weeds right now that you're like you're a month away and well, actually, sorry, just for everybody listening.
[00:48:11]
You're three days away. Yeah, exactly. But not funny. What does this look like for you in five, 10 years? Do you have a vision for what this thing is becoming?
[00:48:20] Mike Traud:
I think it continues to, it's a tough yeah. Whether it grows and does smaller pop ups in other areas, other cities is always an option. I'm a huge fan, and it might not be the best, you know, financial decision, but I'm a huge fan of a smaller, intimate conference.
[00:48:42]
I think that's what people get the most out of it versus if I had a large theater and I could sell so many seats and yes, it's a better financial model. I believe it detracts from the ultimate end product. So it's trying to find that balance between, you know, the right amount of growth, a steady growth that doesn't, you know, and the last thing I would want.
[00:49:10]
Is participants and sponsors and, you know, people that come on a yearly basis to say, you know what I'm going to pass this year and that's when I'll realize that it, well, it outgrew. But it's original, you know, message was like, you know, if I continue to view it as the perspective of that young line cook and who that person wants to meet, but constructing this whole lineup is also talking to journalists, it's also talking to chefs and say, like, who do you want to see speak, who's doing something out there?
[00:49:44]
Who do I not know? Like, Who's doing something in this little niche area that I should highlight?
[00:49:51] Josh Sharkey:
I mean, that's the crazy thing is there's so many, like, how do you even know which ones? And sometimes I don't know how you feel about this, but like, I feel bad. I'm like, there's the folks that we know because yes, you know, David Zilber, right?
[00:50:03]
There's a book. There's a, yeah, there's probably somebody doing some insane fermentation in Tulsa, you know, or somewhere, you know, and obviously that might be a little bit more innocuous that there's. But there are so many, you know, great, you know, talents in all parts of the industry. And it almost seems like, I wonder how much you feel like a part of your job is also going and finding that.
[00:50:25] Mike Traud:
Oh, I think it's a huge part. I don't want it to be like a repeat model, the same speakers. And I think there's an importance to identifying talent. And giving them a voice and a platform on a national stage to get their message out. So a lot of what I do in talking to these journalists is, I ask every journalist, I say, What are the topics that I should be focusing on?
[00:50:50]
Who are speakers and people that I don't know about and that I should be looking at? That's cool. And that becomes a conversation. It's not like an, an official committee, but it's a committee of journalists that provide a lot of insight. They throw out topic ideas that are, you know, things that I can't, you know, think of.
[00:51:09]
And, you know, without their help and support, you know, I can't really construct.
[00:51:14] Josh Sharkey:
That seems like a lot of fun, by the way. Just, you know, ideating on what are all the things I don't know that we should be talking about.
[00:51:20] Mike Traud:
Yeah, it's that, and it's also, I mean, this wonderful world of social media, the ability to engage with people and you never know who you send a direct message to, and you can get a response or you send an email to, and some people get a response, some people don't, but it's, it allows that accessibility and helps build it because I think sometimes when individuals see that Their colleague or somebody that they really want to see speak like, it's funny when you have, you see chefs get starstruck by other chefs or like, I remember, you know, in years past when I've had Harold McGee and like literally, you know, famous New York chefs coming out to me, like, can you introduce me to him? I need to meet this guy.
[00:52:13] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's so impressive how you've continued this over so many years, but there's human nature is social proof is a thing, right? When you see someone else that's been there, like, okay, I'd also love to be there. And to your point, yeah, you also just want to go in and meet those folks.
[00:52:29]
But when I asked you about. You know, what does it look like in 5 10 years? I'm curious if you could maybe just for a minute, like, step outside the normal realms of our worlds and if you had, like, unlimited resources, unlimited team and time, you know, even if it was still in Philly, what would, you know, the, the next part of the conference be for you?
[00:52:49]
Like, are there things that, like, you just, you know, Can't do because there's just no way there's the resources or time to do it that that you would love?
[00:52:54] Mike Traud:
This year I'm getting a taste of having more External food elements. So I think having where it's being able to do these collaboration dinners using Philadelphia chefs National and international chefs really smart and pop ups in Philadelphia.
[00:53:14]
So this is like a trial run so with a you know bigger budget like Comes with the ability of bringing in, you know, international chefs to Philadelphia to participate in these dinners and offer experiences around the conference that aren't offered anywhere else.
[00:53:33] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
[00:53:34] Mike Traud:
Instead of traveling, you know, overseas to the eat this person's food, you're going to eat it in Philadelphia and they're going to.
[00:53:41]
Pair up with a great chef in my local area to give you an unparalleled experience that you're not going to see elsewhere in the United States or internationally. So doing, you know, about six or seven dinners this year around that, but that's a model that. if this goes smoothly, you know, to kind of make those connections.
[00:54:02]
And I think those connections are a beneficial to the people attend the conference, but it's also beneficial to my local community to provide them with that engagement and network.
[00:54:12] Josh Sharkey:
And that is another one of those mediums that just creates more community and network out of what you're, what you're building.
[00:54:18]
You ever been to a festival Montréal en Lumière? No, it's a really cool festival. And they do a similar thing. So they'll fly in Guy Savoy and they fly in, you know, I used to go there with chef Gray Kunz when I was working for him and you know, you would take over another kitchen and you work with that kitchen and there's this bond that happens and they take you to a restaurant and they're like, no, we're going to go to this place.
[00:54:38]
And you know, you don't even worry about that, right? Because there's like this connection and we still talk and it's such this organic kind of connection that you create. And usually you've never met these people before. It's a restaurant. You don't know, you don't know much about. And it's such a cool experience.
[00:54:53]
It sounds like you're building a convivial
[00:54:56] Mike Traud:
environment amongst hospitality professionals that they're willing to open up the door and help you.
[00:55:03] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:55:04] Mike Traud:
You know, you do a solid for them when they're in town and they're going to reciprocate. When you come to their area, so it's like it's a camaraderie that I think really exists in our profession that you know May be lacking in other fields.
[00:55:18] Josh Sharkey:
It's funny I often like I'm so bummed because I'm somewhat removed now Like I don't have my restaurants anymore. But part of the reason why we can do this we have these four walls It's like hey come to my you know, come to my home basically, you know And then I'll come to yours when I come to your city and then I'll go to your friend's home Which is another restaurant and that's just a part of what we're able to give and receive is that connection in those restaurants you
[00:55:40] Mike Traud:
And everybody enjoys sitting around, you know, with food and, you know, I think that's one of the benefits of, you know, that Philadelphia gets to experience is that.
[00:55:49]
There's a lot of conferences out there, not just in food, every field, but just the nature of my demographic, it's like you have these elite people in food and beverage that are coming to your city and now they're going to explore and yeah, they're going to take time to eat at the right places and scout the right places versus, you know, not to say it's like a law conference, they're not putting that time and effort into the selection of their food and beverage.
[00:56:15]
So it's having a combination that trickles into the local environment and the economy.
[00:56:20] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. That's how these, every city starts to build, build, I mean, I remember going to Toronto 20 years ago and not an amazing food city now. It's pretty incredible. And there's a bunch of, you know, conferences that popped up and I think that's a big part of it.
[00:56:36]
It's like you have these folks to start traveling there and then they start, you know, a Blue Opens there or Momofuku and then chefs travel there for conferences and all of a sudden, you know, there's this transfer of knowledge, transfer of, you know, of people and network. And that's how these cities, you know, start to.
[00:56:49]
You know, become, and so you're a big part of that.
[00:56:52] Mike Traud:
It’s having that engagement that's going to really, you know, foster growth and development within communities.
[00:56:56] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:56:56] Mike Traud:
I love that.
[00:56:58] Josh Sharkey:
Quick question, just because I'm super curious and then we can kind of, we'll wrap it up here is how do you like post mortem these things?
[00:57:04]
Like when the conference is over, I'm sure you probably just go to sleep for a while, but after that, like what's the, you know, what's the post mortem on like how to go, what do we change, you know, that kind of stuff.
[00:57:14] Mike Traud:
No, I take feedback from, you know, key stakeholders. On, you know, what their outside perspective is, but also in doing this for 10 years, I know what's right and wrong.
[00:57:27]
It's kind of, it is my baby and you know, where things can be improved. Taking a step back and saying like, okay, this is even now in the planning phase. Like there are things that I can do better next year. There are things that I literally had a phone call five minutes before here. You know, with one of my members of my team and being like, yeah, we've all made mistakes this year, but yeah,
[00:57:51]
especially this year being the first year of the rebrand and doing it on my own as the chef conference, it's establishing a playbook that's going to be, you know, further grow and fine tuned over the years, but it's like anything else I always related to, you know, the restaurant industry that it's like, if the customer doesn't really, you know, See the problem, did the problem really occur during, you know, the back of the house and the service, like, cause it's always going to be for lack of a better term, a shit show, you know, does that then make it in front of people where people come away and saying, this was great.
[00:58:27]
I'm always going to nitpick. There's always going to be things that could have been better. There's always going to be, you know, a speaker that didn't deliver or a moderator that didn't deliver or, you know, little things like that, that they're easy fix. But if. I don't have customer service complaints at the end of the day, then I feel like I've done my job and all I can do is continue to get better.
[00:58:51] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I always take from things like this is it takes, I think, partly just getting older as well, because it's harder when you're younger is you have to have a long term view on these things. And also it's just helpful, I think, to look at. Any of your work is practice, right? Because yeah, it sucks when you're so far in, in a given, let's say in the year for the conference, we're like, I can't change this year, but that's okay.
[00:59:15]
Like I learned it cool index that and next year it'll be better.
[00:59:19] Mike Traud: It's evolution. Like even this year.
[00:59:21]
right? Yeah. I've incorporated new elements because that's the next step to making it better. And there's always going to be like, Hey, I still want to get this speaker. And sometimes it's like picking speakers that, you know, are good and talented, but you also know that they're connected to the next level.
[00:59:40]
So the speaker is going to, springboard you to the next speaker.
[00:59:45] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, you know, and Mike, I apologize. I didn't actually ask you the background between why you changed. It was the Philly Chef Conference, and now it's just The Chef Conference. What's the deal there?
[00:59:55] Mike Traud:
So, uh, in the past years, a lot of transitions within higher education, Drexel has decided to remove their hospitality program.
[01:00:04]
Which then eventually eliminated my position, but it's always been, I remember even having these conversations leading up to this, where people were like, you know, you probably could just take this on your own and grow it. And sometimes being within a large university, there's so many levels of administration that hinders growth and development.
[01:00:24]
So to Have the opportunity to, you know, take this on my own and grow it and truly own it has been, I think transcends into the overall end product in that there's no hierarchy that I have to go through in getting approval. It's kind of like, all right, let's do it.
[01:00:48] Josh Sharkey:
Holy shit. I wish I had asked you this in the beginning.
[01:00:51]
I didn't realize that. That's crazy. So this was something in conjunction with Drexel, the university, and now you just sort of, because it was forced upon you to take it on your own.
[01:01:02] Mike Traud:
Yeah, it was one of those things where it's like, you know, things happen for a reason, you know, the opportunity and, you know, the thought was there to eventually, you know, Kind of do it on my own and you know, the first year is always scarier, but it's also extremely liberating to be like, you know, and I can truly own this and yeah, you know, not have to worry about somebody above me who really doesn't understand the industry kind of questioning the nature of, you know, my panelists, it's just like, you don't know who this person is like, trust me, these are the right people.
[01:01:38]
And now I'm like double stoked. Yeah, so it was, you know, it was scary, but it was needed. I think any growth in any field is going to be difficult. It's going to be scary, but you just have to opportunities present themselves and you have to seize them.
[01:01:51] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Well, there's nothing like necessity to create innovation, you know?
[01:01:55] Mike Traud:
Exactly. And, you know, I think I couldn't, And, you know, having spent 10 years on it, I couldn't let it just, you know, fade away. And I think there's a place in the restaurant industry that needs these conversations and needs this environment to really help us improve as an industry and grow moving forward.
[01:02:13] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Well. On behalf of the whole industry, especially given that you sort of had to take this all on your shoulders pretty quickly, thank you for doing that and keeping it going and, and I'm excited for how it's going to keep growing.
[01:02:26] Mike Traud:
No, I mean, you know, it's also one of those things where it only succeeds because it has the faith and support of the industry as well.
[01:02:34]
So it's like working in tandem with them to make sure that we're all Benefiting and growing at the end of the day.
[01:02:40] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, cool, man. Well, this was a blast. I will see you in person in yeah This is airing then so I'll see you in a few days Yeah, we'll see each other in a couple of days.
[01:02:50] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks man.
[01:02:52] Mike Traud: It’s been a pleasure.
[01:02:55] Josh Sharkey:
Thanks for tuning into The meez Podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend Hip hop artist, fresh daily for show notes and more. Is it getmeez.com/podcast. That's G E T M double E Z . com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it.
[01:03:13]
If you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep innovating. Don't settle. Make today a little bit better than yesterday. And remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next time.
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