Dan Kluger: Yea, well you were able to make my deal, so Yeah. Thanks for letting
Josh Sharkey (2): us use lowering place course. This is awesome. Of course. Good to have you. Where are you, where are you working today? Here and
Dan Kluger: then gonna gr wind right after the expedite.
Josh Sharkey (2): Oh geez.
Dan Kluger: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, do you come to lowering place like every, every I [00:02:00] do, I do.
Um, Monday and Friday at GR Wind, Tuesday and Thursday at Lowering Place and then Wednesdays up in the air. Oh, gotcha. Kinda depends on who's busiest and who needs the most help. So
you
Josh Sharkey (2): were my boss 22 years ago, I think. I hate that word, 22 years ago, something like that. Yeah, like over two decades ago.
It's crazy. It's so long ago for, for Floyd, obviously it's okay. I wanna talk about Floyd today a little bit. So you now have been, I mean, you were like just about to go do your own thing, you know, when I was, uh, a punk kid, uh, you know, working at Tableau when you were the CDC, this is a loaded question, but like, what's different about restaurants today than 20 years ago when you, you know, when you were in it in the early days.
Dan Kluger: And I think everything, in a lot of ways, I dunno if we're gonna go down a rabbit hole, but I think so much. Um, obviously the cost, the cost structure, but I think between Instagram, TikTok and everything else out there, I think just like the [00:03:00] whole landscape has also changed. And it's more about like what's the hot spot over who's got the most exciting and best food and best service.
And I also think in a lot of ways, especially in the city where rents are so high, I think we're probably less. Less likely to take a gamble with, with the food. Like most of us are gonna have the tuna tartar and the black sea bass and the steak and a chicken. And, and that's a bit of a generalization, but I think when you, when you look at places out in, you know, whether it's a, a Williamsburg where the rent's lower or if you go out of the city, like I had some amazing meals in places like Nashville where, you know, the rent's completely different and, and the cost structure is completely different.
And I think they're able to take a little more risks in terms of saying like, this is what we're serving, like it or not. And here I think, you know, we're all competing for customers and yes, there, there's a ton of customers in New York, [00:04:00] but we're all competing and there's so many restaurants that I think it's a little bit harder to, to take too many risks.
It's more calculated risks, if anything. Yeah, it's definitely crowded
Josh Sharkey (2): space, that's for sure. Yes. I mean, the rents in, in New York, I, I imagine they're probably the same as like San Francisco, la maybe not, but like, you know, what are you, we are paying 30, 50, $80,000 a month. It's, it's, uh, it's tough, man. Are there, are the diners different, you think?
Dan Kluger: I think, I think, no. I mean, some respects. I, I guess you could probably argue that customer's expectations are maybe a little greater today. I think, obviously, again, because of Instagram and TikTok, we're, we're, there's so many customers that are more consumed with what does it look like that they're consuming versus what are they consuming?
But I, I think, you know, that the education level, the excitement, overeating, I think all of that is still really high. And, and especially in New York, like one of the best things about New York is that food is something everybody's excited about. I just think it's [00:05:00] gotten to the point where it's so difficult.
The competition, as you said, is, you know, there's so much that's so high. Staffing is a challenge. Um, the level of, of. Employee you find today is very different than when we were cooking. I mean, I remember starting out 1995 and I was, I was like, I didn't know anything. I literally started as a prep cook and I was working my way up and I was at Union Square Cafe.
I was working on the line at one point, and I had on my left, uh, a guy who had been executive chef for like five years and just wanted to take a step back. And he was working as a grill cook. And on my right, uh, I had a former sous chef from like a, you know, three star restaurant that again, just wanted to be a line cook for a little while.
They didn't wanna be a sous chef anymore. Uh, the, the, the executive sous chef was like, you know, uh, again, somebody who would be an executive chef of a huge company today. I mean, like that level was so high. Yeah. And it was amazing for me. I learned so much through that. Um, I had incredible mentors and, and, and teachers and I think now [00:06:00] there's certainly still a lot of.
Cooks, and we're talking mainly about cooks, not, not about front of the house, but we're talking about a lot of cooks that are still excited and passionate about food, but I think less so than when we were starting out. And it was kind of like you were, you were all sort of racing against each other to be better than each other and to know more than each other.
Yeah. Um, and there was this, this friendly but very strong, healthy competition amongst all of us. Yeah. I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case today. And I think in some kitchens for sure. But again, the competition's so great that the, the kitchens that have that is, is minimal. Whereas when we were cooking, I mean, you, you think about your time at Cafe Gray, think back about the, the guys that you were working next to and, and the, the, the different cooks and the level of those cooks.
And I know some of them, so like you, you know Yeah. Really, really talented.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. It's just, uh, I mean, and definitely a different caliber. I mean, I'm just thinking like even, and belay, well, Toi was there and. [00:07:00] Rich and PJ Kpa and Jess and Todd. Yep. You know, and, uh, every single person there, you know, went on to uh, I mean, I wonder if it's actually less about not as many as there is just so many more restaurants that are good restaurants.
Yeah. You know, there's, there's just way more talent now. So like, there's probably, there might be the same amount of Yeah. Cooks like that, but there's so many places to go. Exactly. Spread out more. Yeah. And, you know, it didn't, you know what I found interesting, I was just actually just thinking about this, that when I started cooking, probably when you started cooking, the idea was, oh, I wanna do this because I want to be, uh, I wanna have a successful business.
Just never even thought about that. It wasn't like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this and so that I can have five of these and then I can, you know, make tons of money. It was like, I wanna be the best chef in the world. And that's why, you know, that's why you start. And probably just because you, you didn't even think that was an opportunity.
It was just like, you know, I'll do this. I'll, I'll grind this out. And then eventually in, you know, in a decade I'll be a sous chef, and after that I eventually I'll be [00:08:00] a chef. And, and then you didn't think far enough along like, oh, wait a second, I'll be 70. And, you know, but now it's very, you see this clear path, like, oh yeah, I could actually, you know, I could start something much sooner and Yeah.
And make money and I don't necessarily need to, you know, be, you know, need to go as deep as you used to.
Dan Kluger: Yeah. I mean, I think in, in a lot of respects there, there's a, there's a fine line between how much we've fast tracked that sort of education or, or, or working education of a cook. And, and the same token, how slow it was for, for us growing up.
Like, you know, I, I think back to the amount of people that I knew that had worked at all these amazing restaurants, and they'd spent so much time and, and you know, again. You're putting yourself on the line, you're, you're really putting a lot wear and tear on your body. So by the time you've been doing this for 10 years, you're already beat up and now you're gonna start that next step of your career where you're gonna even require more of yourself.
So I, I think there is a, there's a, a [00:09:00] balance between it being too hard and too long, versus too easy and not getting the experience that you need.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. You've obviously had your restaurants for, for a while now, and before that you also worked for some great chefs, John George and Ccio and Floyd, um, and Union Square Cafe.
What, what, what did you take away from them?
Dan Kluger: I think I took something away from, from each of them, and I think they all individually and collectively helped me become who I am as a, as a chef, as a leader, as a person. You know, I think back to the Union Square days, I think it really, it, it, it, it gave me that, uh, you know, ignited that fire.
To want to do this. Like I was, so again, I was, I was, you know, side by side with all these other cooks that were so excited by food. And we'd talk about food that ignited this fire. Like, I couldn't stop reading and learning and listening and talking. Why did you go to a restaurant? I went to [00:10:00] Syracuse not really knowing what I wanted to do.
I ended up, um, being interested in nutrition and that kind of led me to this food service management. And through that, uh, I had met Danny Meyer and I went and did a summer internship at Union Square Cafe. And I came back from that, like, okay, this, this is what I wanna do with my life. Didn't think I was gonna cook at all.
Thought I was gonna do front of the house, but wanted to learn a little bit about the back of the house, learn about the kitchen, what goes on so that if I own something someday I can at least kind of speak the language, you know? Um, so I was working, I went back after I graduated and I was working in the front of the house and on my days off, I was hanging out in the kitchen just to, to learn a little bit.
And one day they offered me a job as a prep cook. And I was like, okay, you know, put, put my, my. Put in, let's get started. And so I, I think that really helped to, to excite me and, and show me that there was something really cool about cooking. And then, you know, left there, went to work with Floyd at, at Tabla.
How did that happen? He was working out of Union Square Cafe, um, probably about a year leading [00:11:00] up to opening Tabla. And we just kind of hit it off and one day he is like, if you want to come work with me, I said, hell yeah, this is, this is completely, I'd been there for about three years, two and a half years at that point.
And this was, um, you know, he was doing something incredibly groundbreaking and different, and not, not many times you can yeah. Get to learn from somebody like that. And, and I mean, from him I think I took away so much in terms of flavor, um, so much in terms of technique. Obviously a ton about spices. Yeah.
Like, I mean, he really was a genius when it came to that. He was really a technician too. Like he was, I mean, you think about, you think about your time at Cafe Graham and Bole, and I mean, those were some pretty technique driven kitchens, right? And you think about being a Toblin, there's a lot of that same stuff.
And, and I more so I think I, I think in some respects, yeah. And, and I think, look, I mean, Greg Couns genius, amazing, right? Blay genius. I, I think I can still, I can still picture things of his that I've had, right? I was working for Floyd and yet [00:12:00] learning so many of these techniques, learning some of these French techniques.
I remember, I remember, like I had, I didn't know anything. I didn't, I hadn't gone to culinary school. And I remember he, he was making, uh, we made this, this sauce, um, and it was based off of Hollands. And I like saddled up next to him and started asking him questions about making holidays. And he's the one that taught me to make holidays.
And then we made this other sauce. And like that was a pretty cool education. So I, I mean, in terms of people I learned stuff from, I think he, he probably had the most impact on my life in some ways. And then again, just an incredible human being. And I mean, he was there when I got engaged there, when I got married there when I had my first kid.
Like, there's so much of him saying, stop, do this, calm down. And there was just so much life lessons from him. I left, uh, I left working with him after seven plus years. Went to go work with Tom kli on this private club project. He was consulting on court club. Right. Court club, yeah. [00:13:00] And I was kind of concerned about being in the private club sector.
Um, certainly not as cool as they are today. You have one on like every corner now. Yeah. But, uh, it, it was an incredible opportunity, um, spending time with him at, at k Craft and at Gramercy making a menu and bouncing things off of him. And going through all that was, was again, really helped to shape a lot of my visions about how to cook.
I think the, the beneficial part about this was like, I. It was a small restaurant, it was a small crew. Um, we were open breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So there was a, a lot to do, and we had a ton of events, but I wasn't managing a kitchen of 40, 50 people and I wasn't in the public limelight, so I didn't have to worry about reviews, which had its positive negatives.
But I think because that, it allowed me to really go through the growing pains of becoming a chef, a leader, and, and being responsible for, for a whole kitchen crew and a whole menu or multiple menus, et cetera, et cetera, and, and yet kind of like weighed into the water slowly. [00:14:00] What's he like to collaborate with?
He was great. I mean, he, in a, in a lot of ways he was kind like, yeah, sure, no problem. Go for it. But it was good talking through things with him and, and, you know, why, why would we pair this together? Does this sound too heavy? Does this work? And, and I think the biggest challenge in a lot of respects was we were doing, I.
You know, Kao style, craft style, Gramercy style food with, with my inflections, whether it be Tablo or Union Square, but in a private club setting. And so that had its own challenges of like, okay, but where's the, you know, where's the, the berries year round? Where's the Turkey club sandwich? Yeah. And so that, that actually, for as much as it had its challenges is actually really good.
Because again, we're here to, I, I look at cooking the food that I cook in, in Serve two lights. One is what are people gonna, like, how do I make people happy, and what do I like and what's gonna make me happy? If I don't like it, I'm not making it. Like, if I can't eat it, there's no point, because then I can never put my stamp of approval.
Right. Yeah. [00:15:00] And so I, I looked at this, I was like, well, Turkey Club sandwich and cob salad. Like, I don't, I don't wanna make that. I wanna make this like, you know. Roasted chicken or whatever it was. And, and yet we had to do it 'cause we had to make people happy. And so really applying seasonality, really applying the, the techniques that Floyd had in terms of, uh, what I call the peaks and valleys of food.
Sweet, sour, salty, spicy, the textures of food. Um, how do you apply those things to a Turkey club sandwich and, and make it really, really good. And so that's what we did. And so I think, again, you know, about five years there really taught me a lot in terms of my own style, my own skills where I needed development, uh, where I needed to, to learn more.
Um, really taught me a lot about growing a team. And, and I was lucky enough that through that I had forged some incredible relationships, both with, with guests and, and, uh, you know, sort of partners of that industry. But, um, also with the staff in that, many of them, when I [00:16:00] left and, and went to go work for Jean George, many of them wanted to come work with me.
They, they, they, they liked how I. Led them. They liked how I ran a kitchen. And so the idea that people would wanna come work with me, like I didn't, I didn't take anywhere from Tablo. Right. Yeah. So the people, people wanting to come work with me was like, oh wow, I'm, I'm, I might be decent at this. People actually wanna work with me.
So, uh, I went to go work with Jean George, and, and I think that was really kind of, I looked at that as like, sort of taking a bit of a step back, but, um, it was going to open me up to experience some of those things. I felt like I was still missing, whether it was a little more business acumen, which I, I do think hands down, he is probably one of the best businessmen out there when it it comes to, yeah.
When it comes to being a chef businessman, I mean, he's, yeah, he's incredible and just the, the, what do you think makes him so incredible? I think he's very smart. He knows the numbers without like coming off, they knows the numbers. Like he'll just ask you a question and I. He can drill into it [00:17:00] quickly and he'll, you know, whether it's about labor, about food costs, like he'll drill into it quickly.
And yet at the same token he is, he is not sitting there with an accounting degree. Yeah. Like he's just, you know, and then whether it's talking about the, the, the business deals, like, you know, we had open conversations about business deals, whether it's a cookbook or whether it was, you know, the, the next hotel deal.
What, what would he ask for? What would he look for? And so some of that really taught me a lot in terms of what I would look for and what I would wanna do. And then I think really honing in on the balance of flavor and those last little kind of things that I felt like I needed, I needed to touch up on, I think really was like my, my time with him helped to formulate that.
Yeah. Yeah. Greg Brainin, who is his, yeah. You know, kind of director of culinary, but he was his corporate chef. I mean, right hand, like mm-hmm. I mean, I think you spend time with him still is, right? Yeah. I, I mean, hands down, probably one of the best chefs in the world and, you know, he's happy doing what he does, but.
I mean, there's not a, like I, [00:18:00] I'll still go and eat it their restaurants and I have the food that, that I know Greg is making, or it's something that he made 10 years ago. Hands down. Yeah. You can't, you can't touch it. I, I ate at, um, topping Roses this past summer and I had this dish that was like, I knew it'd be good.
And the last little bit, the last little flourish that was on us, why would you ever put that? And yet it was the best part about it. Yeah. And that's him. So again, I think a lot of that really helped to, to make me kind of feel confident in those next steps and the next steps for me was going off on my own and opening my own place.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (2): It does sound like the core club was a great, like, um, just like training ground because there's less of the public eye pressure.
Dan Kluger: And I mean, not to say that, you know, we had a, an open budget, but I. You know, food cost was not, we had a good food cost, but food cost was never like Yeah. Top of mind for anybody.
So, you know, I got to play with, yeah. Black truffles, white truffles, and gra and caviar [00:19:00] and, and experienced things that I, I might not normally at that point in my career. Yeah. Like I'd only, you know, used a little bit of truffles and, and caviar, uh, you know, up until that point. I mean, certainly, um, plenty of fo gras, whether it was Floyd or, or, or mm-hmm.
Tom. But, you know, some of these other things. And then, like, I remember we did some huge event, um, and we were using these, I don't even remember where it was, but these incredible, uh, fish purveyors, um, that were shipping things from all over the world and were doing this huge event, and it was like all raw bar, but they were spending a ton of money.
And so we brought in things that like I'd never heard of, and like we served five different kinds of shrimp and Lan guines, you know, all set out on this raw bar. Things that, that I couldn't afford to do.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah, I'm sucker for a row bar.
Dan Kluger: Yeah, so I mean,
Josh Sharkey (2): I will say like there's something also to having to create, having to make like a BLT or a club because you could just make the sandwich, you know, it's bacon, lettuce, tomato.
But like [00:20:00] the i the idea of like, okay, what's the perfect way to toast this bread? Right? What thickness should the bread be? Like, what temperature the tomato be? Like how should I cook the bacon? How long, what kind of bacon? Like there's, because it's so like already known, a known entity to like do that.
Well I think that's actually a part of cooking that people un like undervalue, you know, of just doing things that might actually seem innocuous, but like doing it like. As best as possible.
Dan Kluger: And it's, it goes back to like attention to detail. Yeah. And, and the ingredient driven cooking. Right. And so in this case, it was like, it was great bread from, uh, I don't know, it was being quet or Tomcat or pen, pen, avenue.
I'm one of those guys. Um, great bread toasted, perfectly, uh, you know, good lettuce, not, not like just a piece of iceberg or whatever. It was like we had good lettuce, we made our own mayo. It was like lemon pepper aioli. Uh, I think we made our own bacon. We made a tomato jam. We cooked our Turkey slowly. Like we just try and tried to take each part and like impart just a little more flavor into it.
Yeah. [00:21:00] And, and a little more attention to the details of it. And again, to your point, like that, just that's those things that like we kind of take for granted. Yeah, you
Josh Sharkey (2): do. And, and sometimes they're harder, you know? Yeah. Because everybody knows what to expect and, and they know what it, it's, it's usually good.
So you can also kind of fuck it up if you, if you try the wrong way. Yeah. So are there times now when you're. Let's just, we'll stick to like cooking where you're doing something and you are reminded of Floyd, for example. I mean, I,
Dan Kluger: yeah. I, I don't,
Josh Sharkey (2): I can't wash rice without thinking of Floyd,
Dan Kluger: can't wash rice, can't touch spices.
I, I can't pick up a coon spoon. Yeah. Without like him in my head, you know? And, and that's kind of weird, but you think about lasting impressions, right? And you, you, you like, think about how you maybe a memory or how you see something. I can still remember him carefully holding the saute pan in one hand, holding the spoon on the other hand, just basting a [00:22:00] piece of fish and then tapping his spoon on the counter and then basting, and then tapping, and then saing.
And like, I can just picture him with that spoon in his hand. And so every time I pick one up, it's just a, it's a constant reminder of him. Yeah. We did, um, we did, uh, at, at great when we have a chef's counter, um, it's AC counter. And we did, uh, a couple times last year we did these special tastings. They, they always had some kind of theme.
And so for, for two months we did, um, sort of tabla Floyd inspired, uh, meal tasting menu. And it was, it was so incredibly incredible to be cooking that food again, it's hard not to get choked up about Right. But to, to be cooking that food again and, and really think about that time with him and like knowing what he'd be saying.
And I was fortunate enough that, that Barca and Justin came to eat it and seeing the look on their face when they're eating was like, all right, this, this is, this is what it's worth. Like th this is why I do this.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah. [00:23:00]
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, just too many. I mean, I, I really, I really also do think that there was, I mean, was almost.
Better for the cooks than the diners. You know, it was like a cook's dream. Yeah. Yeah. Every technique you're, you know, you're breaking down a whole whole pigs and goats Yeah. And hanging ducks, and you got different kinds of, you know, run ducks. You're grinding up crab or, I mean, there's so many techniques that you learn there and you get to do all of it, you know?
Dan Kluger: Yeah. I mean, again, I, I guess when you go back to talking about diners back then versus now, and kitchens back then versus now, like, I, I think the diners certainly appreciated what they were getting, but I think if he was cooking that same food today with a TikTok video and an Instagram video that's Yeah.
Today,
Josh Sharkey: yeah.
Dan Kluger: He would be one of the most famous chefs in the world because of those techniques. Because those things we're doing, you, you talk about the crab, like grinding, grinding lobster heads with butter, and then frying them, and then making this like stock or making a lobster consummate that was blue.[00:24:00]
Right? Like, all these things that like, I. Yeah. It was so educational. Yeah. Where were you gonna learn this?
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. But that, I feel like that's a pretty evergreen, uh, lesson that I, I know I've done a poor job of in the past that that's, that's pretty much a necessity is you have to be able to tell a good story.
You know? I think enough people, enough people probably just didn't know what was behind the scenes of what they're reading there. But that's also kind of the job of, you know, the business, right? Is they make bringing them into that, into that book, because it's such a story, you know, that didn't, that food didn't exist, and all they see is what's in the plate.
And it's tough because that they all, they can judge is like, you know, uh, whatever, a tapioca, cru crusted piece of skate, and they don't, and there's some spice in there, but they don't know that, like, that spice is actually from Southern Gore, where he's from and this, you know, like this technique is actually really difficult.
They don't, they don't know those things. Yeah. And I know it might be, it seems like a cheat, but it's not. I think the story is important.
Dan Kluger: I think for a lot of people, the story should be important [00:25:00] in general. Dining out is, you know, sort of falls in two camps, right? One is you're going for an experience, you're going for a celebration, you're going 'cause you really want to eat.
And the other one is, it's a means to an end. And so the, the struggle is separating that as, as the, as the owner, as the chef, as the server, as the manager. Separating that experience and knowing when are you just, is a means to an end. And you don't really care about the whole story and everything behind it.
Versus somebody that's sitting there and wants to learn and wants to hear about this and, and wants to know what a ruin end duck is. And why did you hang it for, for, you know, two weeks? Yeah. And again, there's certainly restaurants that are doing that, right. And they're doing an incredible job of that.
But that's like, you're going there for that. Yeah. It's a, it's a tasting menu. It's a Michelin star, whatever. Right. We, we weren't, we were, we were just cooking good food. Yeah. And I think that kind
Josh Sharkey (2): of
Dan Kluger: got lost in,
Josh Sharkey (2): in yeah, let's talk the bread part, but [00:26:00] translation, you know, 'cause it was more, more approachable.
But yeah, it is. Yeah. It is. It, it is true. I do think that that's probably one of the benefits of, of social media is that it does help people tell their, tell their story more.
Dan Kluger: Yeah. A hundred percent. And, and be able to teach a little bit more. Yeah. The interesting thing is, you know, we're spending a lot of time talking about Floyd and, and I hate to say it, but probably most of the people listening to the podcast don't really know who he is.
They might know about
Josh Sharkey (2): Zema now because of him, you
Dan Kluger: know? Yeah. Zemo or, you know, or, um, I mean, paved the way for, for a lot of people out there. But, uh, you know, again, you, you think about, you talked about Boule, you talked about Greg Konz. Like there's a lot of people that, um, really had an everlasting impact on the culinary world that Yeah.
That are gone and Yeah. People today, I mean, I, I remember. You know, somebody came in to eat and I turned to the cooks. I'm like, oh, that's so and so nobody even knew.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. You know, I was in the subway. This is not a, not a chef. I was in the subway, I don't remember when this was, but it was, [00:27:00] I heard these two young girls talking, and one of them said, oh, and Jerry Seinfeld.
They're like, who's that, that guy from that, uh, cars and coffee show. I'm like, what? You know, but it's, you know, they have no, they have no context of it. Right. Um, and I, someone else was like, um, I forget what it was, but my, my wife sent me some, some YouTube thing, but then it was like a, one of those reels and it, like, I went to the next reel and it was, uh, some kids watching Eminem's first album, like his, his, uh, I forget which, what song it was, but what's the first album?
The Eminem show or something. The Mar Marshall man. Marshall Man, and they're like, this is insane. I'm like, that's Eminem. What are you talking about? That's, you know, that's what happens. We can probably like sprinkle Floyd into uh, like a bunch of the things that we're doing. But I am, you know, kind of curious 'cause you were talking about management and I remember you as a manager being pretty stoic and didn't talk a lot.
[00:28:00] So when you did, it meant something. So to be honest, we were kind of scared, right? Because like, you didn't say much. You'd walk up and then you would something, wouldn't say anything, just walk away. Like what the fuck is he thinking? Like, is is he pissed? But there's a, there is a sort of a value to that and I don't know if that was purposeful or if you sort of, you know, started embracing that more as you did more management.
But like, has your management style changed? No,
Dan Kluger: probably not. I mean, I think, I think it's changed in the respect of, I, you know, I certainly had, I don't wanna say temper, but I, I would get mad, I would get frustrated and, and obviously from time, time show that, because for me a lot was riding on the, on the line, right?
Like I'm trying to make a career a name for myself. Yeah. I think now I'm certainly a little more stoic than than ever in that respect. But it's interesting that you say that because I think one of the things that I've, I've struggled with a lot and, and people have complained over the years, like, you know, that I don't say good job enough or something like that.
I, I always feel like I am, I'm saying good job. But one of the things that, that Floyd had said [00:29:00] early on when we did this dinner, I was telling this story in front of Barca and Floyd's thing was like, he didn't, he said, he's like, I don't, I'm not really gonna say good job very often. Yeah. I worked for a chef who said, good job every night, no matter how good or how bad it was, so didn't mean anything.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: And so when I say it, I wanted to mean something and I'd heard that. I said, okay, great. No problem. Hopefully I'll get one, one day. And I remember making a sauce and at, you know, the end of this was like during friends and family kind of training and everybody would gather up and we'd talk through everything.
And he's like going through, he is like in the skate, the mushroom, the maple tamin sauce couldn't have made it better myself. And I'm like. Yeah, that's my good job. Yeah. And that like stuck with me forever. Right. And, and I would, yeah, when I would go to make that, that would be in the back of my mind. And so I, it's funny that you, you know, you say it that way.
I, I, I think it's more, and this is also one of my big struggles with, with managers and, you know, especially sous chefs, [00:30:00] we always talk about like a, a make sure your communication amongst the team is very, very clean and clear. And b, don't just impart something for the sake of imparting. Like, you have a job.
You don't have to show your worth. Show your worth by, by being involved, by helping out. But don't be somebody that's just doing this for the sake of it. And, and I remember, I'll, I'll leave the names out of this, but I remember walking the line and the sous chef went and said to whoever it was, the risotto's not being RA made right.
And told him how to make it a few minutes later. And I kind of watched this happen and I was like, I'll wait for Floyd to come in and I'll ask him. Another sous chef comes like, why are you making it this way? You should make it this way. And then another sous chef, at that point, we were like five of us, right?
Comes and kind of looks over and, uh, probably commented and that was it. And the cook turns to me, God damn it, every fucking one of you tells me something different. [00:31:00] So I went into the office, I got Floyd and I said, come deal with this. Come tell everybody how you want this made. And everybody stood around and watched.
And the three that were wrong, just kind of Yeah.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: Went off into the corner. Right. And that was the problem. And, and not to a fault of his, but to a fault of ours. And it's something I've worked so hard on, and I guess this could be a great plug for me, right. Like using tools, like recipes and using tools like our closing reports to communicate every little thing.
Yeah. And I'm, I'm like, I'm making notes. All service long. Bass is overcooked. Bass is undercooked. They're pressing the bass too hard. The sauce isn't green enough, whatever it is. Right. My notes, I mean, I know these guys hate it when they see my closing report after I, I am here on a mon on a Tuesday or whatever it's, or on my grey wind because my notes are so long, but I'm trying to, I'm trying to make sure that everybody's on the same page, that there's no confusion.
Because I remember being that cook.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: And I remember being frustrated like that cook. And so when that cook [00:32:00] confided in me that they were,
Josh Sharkey: yeah.
Dan Kluger: At the point that they were ready to walk out out of frustration.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah. I.
Dan Kluger: I was like, I have to do whatever I can to really try and, yeah, clean this up and moving forward for me.
Always make that something that I'm adamant about.
Josh Sharkey (2): Oh yeah. It's, I mean, I remember that happening to me, not, not so much at Tableau, but happening, and it's just part, a lot, a lot of the impetus for why means exists actually.
Dan Kluger: Well, it's funny, like there's a, there's another restaurant that one of our sous chefs had been working at prior to here.
He went to fill in for a little while because we were delayed. And he came here and he had, he had worked with us at, um, A, B, C, where we had really detailed recipes, and then he worked for a few other places. He signed on to work with us. We got delayed. He went to work for this other company and he, I remember him telling me this story and just being so pissed off and then so thankful that we were using recipes.
He was working at this restaurant and he had to make like a spring pea soup or something, and he made it and it was [00:33:00] wrong, and the sous chef chewed him out. He's like, I, I'm, I follow the recipe that recipe's wrong. Why are you following a recipe that recipe's not even Right. Why would you do that? Yep. It made him feel like a complete asshole for following a recipe.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: And again, I'm not saying that, that we don't make mistakes to our recipes. And I haven't told a cook one thing and the other sous chef like that, that shit does happen. But we really work on it. And when I heard that about the recipe, I was like, I was aggravated for him. Yeah. That as a, as a management team, whether it's Yeah.
Our restaurant or somebody else, we're not doing more to support Cook. Yeah. Yeah. And so we've made all of our recipes in, in Gram's, our recipes are very detailed and I, I remember working with a cook who was really pissed off about this, and he was like, you know, use the old, uh, what's the, the saying, teach a man to, to fit.
Right. Yeah. And he, he, he was upset that he would have to follow a recipe. And I said, look, [00:34:00] if. You make mayonnaise and it comes out wrong. There's only one reason why.
Yeah.
Dan Kluger: You, yeah, because the recipe's to the gram Yeah. And the techniques written out, if you don't follow it, it's not coming out. Right.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: And why do you want that frustration?
Josh Sharkey: Yeah.
Dan Kluger: That at five o'clock, I'm telling you your sauce is wrong, or that you've made a big batch of something and wasted your time and our effort and uh, our money. Right. And your effort. And so again, it's like when, when you talk about management and you look at, you know, back then to now we have so many more tools at our disposal, we need to be using them.
And that's just something I constantly stressed.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. I, I think also we just didn't, we didn't, we weren't taught management skills. It's funny. I, I have a similar problem and I have to force myself now I have mechanisms in place for feedback because my, my wife tells me that I ration, I ration my love.
You ration your love. I don't say often enough like, you know, Hey babe, thanks too much. This is so sweet of you. Da da. And, um. There's a book [00:35:00] I love called the One Minute Manager, and it's uh, it's like literally that thing's tight and, and, uh, one of the premises is catch them doing something right. You know, you're, you're, you're trying to find them doing something right so that you can give praise.
You don't wanna ever give empty praise and off. You always wanna praise the effort, not the, you know, not the outcome. But the more that you give them this sort of, uh, uh, you know, you're consistent with giving them, you know, this, this praise when you don't, then they're like, oh shit. You know, like, he always will find me doing the right thing, even if there's 10 things I did wrong.
He'll find the one thing I did and, and make sure that he tells me. So when I don't hear it, you know, I know that there's something up and it keeps them motivated. 'cause obviously, like, you know, if you, if you just feel like you're always doing a terrible job or you don't know if you're doing a good job or not, it's a pretty shitty place to be in, you know, as a, as any kind of employee.
Yeah,
Dan Kluger: I think that's something that we can all be better at. I, I also, again, like I don't remember somebody really. For all the people I worked with, I don't really remember a lot of like, you're [00:36:00] doing great. Never. Yeah. I got the, I got the negative feedback whenever it was there, and it was pretty clear to me if I wasn't doing my job well and when I got a good job, I felt great about it and I took it with me and I took, you know, wore that on my, my back for a while and yeah, that, that helped carry me through.
So, I mean, again, I think this, this is a little bit of like the, the psychology of everybody's a little bit different and they, they, they are motivated by different things. They need different things and it is, you know, when you talk about like not really being trained on management, I think working, working at USHG and working for Danny Meyer, um, there were certainly plenty of training sessions on how to be a manager, but I think there's a lot that probably was missed in terms of that kind of stuff.
Yeah. And really deciphering how to figure out, you know, who needs lots of positive reinforcement, who needs. Uh, a little bit. Who needs to hear the negatives? Yeah. You know, I like, for me, I'm, I'm, [00:37:00] at least in terms of my business, I'm pretty clear on when I'm succeeding and when I'm not. I may not know that you hate my guts, but in terms of the business and am I making customers happy and is the food right?
That's pretty obvious to me. Yeah. And so I kind of look at it as like, if you are a member of the team, we're giving feedback whether customers are happy or they're not happy, we're giving feedback of is the staff happy? They, are they frustrated that the schedule's not coming out on time, that they don't have enough shifts or whatever.
It's, so if you're not doing your job to do those things properly, it should be pretty clear to you. But I'm sure that everybody would say they want, they want more of it and they want more feedback. Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (2): Even if it's not frequent, at the very least, knowing whether you're doing a good job or not. I think that's the worst is when someone, they just don't know, you know, whether they're actually doing a good job or not.
It's obviously less so probably in the kitchen. But curious how does, I mean, how, how old, how old are your kids now? 19 and 16. Gotta think
Dan Kluger: [00:38:00] for a second.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. How did they change the way that you manage people?
Dan Kluger: My, my wife would probably say very differently. Um, I, I don't think I was winning, uh, husband or father of the year awards at any point.
But I think, like, again, you know, they, they certainly motivated me to get up and go to work each day. Right. And gotta, gotta pay for the things that they need. But I think they also, over the past few years, they've really kind of given me a little bit more motivation to, to try and find ways to be home and to not work so much.
Especially now I think, like I'm looking back and realizing how much I, I missed, but I, I think the thing that probably at some point there was a little bit of a shift in that I realized I was, you know, working my ass off coming home. Friday, getting home after work at like, you know, 2:00 AM on a Friday and being exhausted Saturday morning, but waking up with my kids and [00:39:00] now being grumpy and exhausted.
And here I am, like nobody knows who I am. I haven't been there for five days. And now I come in complaining just like I probably was complaining on the line, why, why is this not cooked properly? Why didn't you do this? Why is your station a mess? And I was, why is the floor a mess? Why haven't you put your toys away?
And there was a lot of that and, and me just kind of being the, the asshole on Saturdays and Sundays and not finding time to, to slow down and just enjoy life and enjoy them. And so I think at some point I started to realize I, I can't continue like that and it's not good for anybody. And again, kind of heard Floyd in the, in the back of my head saying, you know, leave work at home.
I leave work at work and home at home. And so I think that. That helped with my patients, that helped with my prioritization of things in some respects, maybe motivated me to be a little bit better at, you [00:40:00] know, communicating and understanding that people got shit going on.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah.
Dan Kluger: I don't know if that answers the question in No,
Josh Sharkey (2): it does.
Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting. I learned so much about, um, just behavior from my kids that, 'cause we're all like, we don't really change, you know? Yeah. And the, the, the things that you do as a kid. Um, for example, um, we, we, we, because my, my wife inspires me to watch these things with her. There's a, uh, this doctor named Dr.
Becky something or other, I forget her, but she's, she's great. She's a child psychologist. And, um, there's this premise of, you know, kids have all the emotions and none of the tools to regulate them. So they, the, the actions that they take, they. Seem crazy to us, right? Because they don't know how to regulate their emotions.
I mean, a lot of adults don't how to regulate their emotions. Yeah. Uh, so the thing that you're trying to figure out is the regulation, right? As opposed to the action. But oftentimes as parents where we, we might accidentally just scold the emotion, you know, 'cause they're actually [00:41:00] like really angry and what by what they're doing is hitting their sister or they're, you know, breaking something right?
Or like not listening to you. And, uh, the easy thing to do is like, fuck, why are you doing that? Which oftentimes we do, like dude, right? Stop being an asshole. But it's because they can't regulate their emotions. But a lot of times people can. And, uh, it, that's helps me a lot because, you know, businesses sometimes be high stress situations and team members when they're in high stress situations may have a hard time, you know, regulating their emotions as well.
Whether that's like they're nervous or they're scared, uh, whatever it is on the line, I'm sure that happens a lot. And then they take, you know, they, they, they screw up. I remember sometimes being like. When it's busy or Floyd is in, or, or, you know, we're like, sometimes I just don't wanna fuck up, you know?
Yeah. Because, you know, he's there and then you, you act a certain way. So I think that's helped me a lot, just like being more understanding of when somebody, um, is acting a certain way, even if they're kind of being a dick to me, if their first reaction is like, dude, shut up. Um, [00:42:00] but like, wait a second, why are they, why are they acting this way?
Dan Kluger: Yeah. Again, I'm, I'm, I'm far from perfect in any of it. I think my, my youngest, uh, has as many children probably today, has been in therapy for a good portion of her life, for various things. And I think through some of that I've, I've learned a lot in terms of her coping mechanisms, her, her struggles. And there's times similar to what you were kinda saying, like, somebody may be acting a certain way, and I'm like, my first inclination would kind be like, yo, that's not acceptable.
But then because of her kind of taking a step back and being like, okay, what could she possibly be feeling right now? What's going on with her? And then at the same token, and, and she's kind of like two wise for her age, but I remember having a conversation with her at one point about my struggles with somebody else who was, who was struggling at work.
And she kind of said to me like, well, that sucks that they're going through that. I go through that a lot. But she's got a job to do. And I think you need to ask her can she do [00:43:00] her job? And if she can't, maybe she needs to find a different job that she can do. And there is a, again, like through all of this, yes, we're always gonna try and make people apple happy and try and work with people, but this, this is still business.
That's right. Yeah. It's a business. It's not family. Yeah. And, and, but, but even family, like, and I remember talking with, um, Kendra, who's on our team and it's been with me forever. I've saying to her something recently, I'm like, you know, you, you, you tell your daughter to brush her teeth and you'd probably tell her again to brush her teeth by the third time, you're not being nice about it.
Right? Like, she's gotta go brush her teeth and she's gotta go to bed. Like, we still have things to do. And so I, I, again, I think towing that line between. We got things to do. Yeah. And, and this is a business, and at the same token, understanding that maybe the drama between two people has some underlying Yeah.
You know Yeah. Theme that, that we need to try and help
Josh Sharkey (2): with. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually a, an interesting element to that sort of philosophy that that doctor takes as well, is the action's actually not okay. Whatever the behavior is, that's not okay. Right. You [00:44:00] know, can't do that. The emotion is, I think we as, as long as we, we sort of understand the emotion and acknowledge that the, the action you can always sort of police Anyway.
We'll stop talking about kids. I am curious, like, well, a couple things. One, like, I mean, you're a chef, you're one of the, you know, best chef I've ever worked with. Like, when do you feel you have now all these businesses that you run, when do you feel just really in sync with what you're doing? Like in, in a flow state right now?
I mean, like in a, in a given month. Like what, is there a time when that you feel mostly,
Dan Kluger: I guess the, the, the time that I feel. I dunno if I'd say in sync, but I guess just best about what I'm doing is when, you know, we're, we're cooking, I'm cooking and I'm, I'm receiving that instant gratification of either yes, being happy or myself being happy with something that I did or a cook [00:45:00] next to me saying, you know, thank you for spending that time with me like that.
That's why, I mean that essentially why I do this, right? Like, I, I like cooking food, I like making people happy. I, I can't physically cook food for the rest of my life in terms of like, I can't be on the line, but I, I love still being part of it. And so I think like if I'm cooking online and, you know, keeping up with, with kids half my age, I feel pretty good about it.
If I hear some, some really great comments or, or, or, or, or feedback from a guest that I. Feels like it's the fruit of the hard labor then, then I feel good about it.
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Do you have like a, any kind of, I dunno, like a framework or, or process when you're feeling like stuck? Like how do you get unstuck? Something you're trying to solve or trying to figure out?
Dan Kluger: Well, I think food related stuff, I think, again, I [00:47:00] talked about him a lot, but I hear Floyd in the back of my head who was always like, always cook from your heart.
And that's goes back to my whole like Turkey club thing, right? Like he, he said to me, I remember saying something about having to make something and he, and he was like, stop, don't do it. And I'm like, what? He's like, you gotta cook from your heart. If you don't feel this, you don't wanna do it right now.
You got too much on your mind. Just stop. You're only gonna put shit on the plate 'cause you're in a shitty mood. I did. And I came back the next day and I made something and he is like, this is good. And so I, I've kind of taken that with me in that same respect. Like if I'm stuck, like just not seeing, I'm not seeing a menu change or I'm not seeing, um, a new dish, um, I kind of like just try and take a step back.
And I know that even though there's maybe a deadline, like it'll, it'll happen. And, you know, I've been fortunate enough to, to work with teams that. Help motivate me. Um, Seth, who, who you knew very well, uh, when he worked with us, um, he'd be great in terms of, you know, bouncing things [00:48:00] off of Caitlyn, who's worked with us for a long time.
She and I will start talking about food and, and we really just kind of like, we'll riff off each other and I, I'll be like, completely stuck or she'll be stuck. Same thing, start talking about a dish and it could take a completely different direction. But yeah, we, we like found our way outta that. And again, talk about being a sink.
Like that makes me feel really good. Yeah. Like, okay, this, this is worth it. In terms of being stuck business wise, I don't know. That's tough. I think the, the business is incredibly hard these days that I think, to be honest, I feel like I'm stuck every day. So, um, I'm not, I'm not sure.
Josh Sharkey (2): It's tough, man. I mean, on the creative side, it's funny.
I feel like time can be the biggest killer of creativity in many ways, unless you're. You know, it's always good to have a, a constraint, I feel like, you know? Mm-hmm. To have some kind of constraint, whether it's money constraint or time constraint or, you know, a resource constraint. 'cause then you, you have a little bit of, of Yeah.
Like a, of a barrier to work with. So it, it, it'll help you, [00:49:00] you know, narrow down what you're gonna do. So I'm reading Leonardo da Vinci's biography right now from Walter Isaacson and, um, basically it took him a very long time to, well, to do anything. He, he would, he would take six, seven years to finish a painting.
Sometimes he wouldn't even finish it, but he was adamant about like, you know, you don't rush anything. The last supper I remember specifically painting on, on, on walls is very difficult. Ideally it not ideally, like you have to do it basically in a day 'cause you like wet the plaster and then you paint and then you just paint it in a day and then it's done.
But his style is very different from that. Like he invented this thing called tomato, and essentially you have to like do all these layers of painting and you have to, you know, the, the way in which he would do every single tiny little brush stroke of layer would be, you would barely even like be able to see the, the stroke of the brush.
And so it took years some time to do these things and people would get pissed because, you know, it would take him forever and they wanted to, to be done. And, you know, he was adamant that like, you know, like creativity doesn't work on a, [00:50:00] on a timeline.
Yeah.
Josh Sharkey (2): Uh, so it might be the only sort of constraint that, it might be the hardest constraint is time because money constraint.
Sure. You can, you know, make some delicious with, you know, uh, tomato and uh, you know, whatever, some basil and, and some nuts or something. You don't have to have truffles, but, uh, time is tough, especially, you know, you wanna create something, you know?
Dan Kluger: Yeah. I mean, it's almost like the, the construction triangle.
What's that? I think it's cost, time and quality. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. Yep. And sort of the same thing in that, like, they, they always say you can have one, but not all three. Yeah. Yeah. You can have it fast. You have, you know, you can have
Josh Sharkey (2): it cheap or you can have it good.
Dan Kluger: And I think, you know, there's times when, whether it's a special event or, or something that we're on, then somebody's like, oh, we need a new drink, or we need a new whatever.
Like, okay, I, I can work on that. But again, for [00:51:00] me to cook from my heart, for me to feel good about it, it's gotta be something I really want to do.
Josh Sharkey: Yeah. I'm like, well,
Dan Kluger: come on. I mean, you could Google smoothies today and you could come up with five smoothies. Yeah, yeah. But I'm only gonna be able to do two or three.
So I wanna make them things that are really good and people are gonna come back craving and we're, they're gonna talk about them. Right. And so outta those three, what, what are gonna be the, the things that I need to hit on those? Like maybe one is a, a sweetie kind of thing, like a chocolate peanut butter kind of thing.
One, and I'm using this because something that had like, just come up. Maybe, maybe one is a, a, a green one. Right? Okay. But now there's so many elements that you could throw into that. Like, does it get pea protein? Does it get, uh, soy protein? Does it get vegetable protein? Yeah. Does it get no protein? Right?
And so you have all these different factors and, and it just, it just takes time. Yeah. And, and you know, at least, and you own, you own your own business. You, you had your own restaurants as well. You know, there is only so much time in the day and you have to prioritize. And I think that is something that like I'm trying to do more and more today in terms of prioritizing, whether it's [00:52:00] prioritizing for a partner, prioritizing for a team, prioritizing for my family.
And so I. That may mean that it takes that much longer to get you Yeah. Your smoothie or your new pizza or your new menu or your, you know, Instagram post or whatever it is. But at least when I know it's done, again, I did it from the heart. I feel good about it. And that, that's like, again, as we, as we kind of talk about Floyd, I think those are some of those like life lessons I took away from Yeah.
From my time with him.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. It's, it's funny actually when I think, when I, every time I, I think about competing, if you're competing on like Iron Chef or, or one of those shows, I'm like, man, that would suck because there's so many things that benefit from, you wanna cure it. You wanna slowly marinate something, you wanna let sit overnight.
Just even the thought of something like slowly cooking overnight or, or even just marinating overnight, things like that, you just can't do any of that. You just really, you're so limited in what you can, I mean, I don't know all the rules around, around what you can actually do ahead of time, but I imagine not much nothing like Dish.
Is that [00:53:00] not a fun way to No. To to cook honestly. You talk about, you talk about costs and, and like stuck in design. I'm, I'm curious. We actually, we were talking about this before. I don't get to eat out as much as I used to because, you know, I'm not living in the city anymore, but things are fucking expensive now, at least in some places.
But, um, in some places I feel like they're, they're not expensive enough. Yeah. But what do you, what do you think about like, the perception of what food should cost today versus what it actually what you are, you're, what you are charging versus what people actually perceive it should cost?
Dan Kluger: I think the average person thinks that, at least for, for our restaurants, that the food is too expensive.
And again, I think that's somewhat based on, there's tons of competition out there. So it depends on, uh, where else are they eating and how is that restaurant due and, and how are they supported by other partners. But it was interesting. I was, I was listening to, I think it was the podcast with, uh, that you had with Todd, who we worked with.[00:54:00]
And he was talking about food cost, and he was saying how his food cost has come down substantially, but everything else has gone up. And so he's, he's trying to bring his food cost down even more in order to make up for everything that's gone up. And that's the reality. Like I look at this, I say, how much more can I charge for a pizza or whatever?
But the problem is every other cost. Yeah, every other cost. I mean, I, you know, I don't want to get into the numbers too much, but I think, and again, every business out there is a little bit different. But pre COVID to today, night and day, our sales are 25% lower today than pre COVID is that we've, we've run our course and we're old news and the food sucks.
The service, uh, who knows? I don't, I don't believe that. I think, I think again, there's just tons of competition out there. And so people are going to the hotspots and we're not necessarily a new hotspot anymore, so we have more of our. Regular clientele [00:55:00] and we have less people finding out about us 'cause we're not doing tons of press and pr, et cetera.
But I also think that people are dining out differently. I, I think, and on a tangent, but I don't know if you saw Ben Leventhal had posted something that Harold Moore said the other day.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah, I saw that red don't come at seven o'clock.
Dan Kluger: Please don't come at seven o'clock. You have to come at other times.
And I think that's the reality. Like, I mean, we had, we had two guys come in recently all pissed off that the kitchen was closed at nine 15 on a, on a Monday night. It was like ghost town by nine o'clock. Yeah. People aren't eating out. Yeah. Late. And, and again, are they eating out at some of those restaurants late?
Yes. There are restaurants that are, that are booming at 9, 10, 11 o'clock. Totally get it. The average neighborhood kind of restaurant. They're not. And so. I think, you know, for us, the, the dining landscape has changed or the customer dining landscape has changed. I think, uh, we're, we're nowhere near as busy as we were, but as you talk about costs, our food costs we're controlling better than [00:56:00] ever our labor costs.
Were kind of controlling better than ever, but every other cost is through the roof. ConEd went from being like eight grand a month to 14 grand a month. Insurance went from 60 grand a year to 130 grand a year. You name it, you name it it. Right. So like we, we are trying to make up for it. These increases in the food cost, but that's not necessarily fair.
If you, if you are savvy and you, you go to the farmer's market and you're like, well, I picked up sugar snap peas at the farmer's market for, for $6 a pint, and they're charging $22 to a salad. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. But what went into it?
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. That's what's missing. I've probably gone on this tangent too many times, but you know, you're not, look, we can't change how people think about, uh, the cost of food, but you're not paying for the ingredients.
'cause otherwise go make it at home. You know, you're paying for, you know, the, the environment you get to sit in. You don't [00:57:00] have to clean up afterwards. And you can have the right lighting when you're sitting with your wife or your girlfriend or boyfriend, and people are gonna like, serve on you. You know, they're gonna serve you and they're gonna take your plates away and they're gonna bring, bring new ones and you're gonna have a nice pork and you're gonna have music playing.
And if your kid
Dan Kluger: knocks your glass of wine over and breaks the glass. Yeah. Not only are you not paying for that glass, the physical glass, but you're not paying for another glass of refilled wine. That's right. And giving you that wine. That's right. We, it's the spendable thing to do, right?
Josh Sharkey: Yeah. And you, at
Dan Kluger: home, what would you have done?
You would have to pour yourself another glass of your wine that you already paid for.
Josh Sharkey (2): That's right. Yeah. And you, and you, uh, have a, an air conditioned space when it's the summertime and you have a warm space in the wintertime, and all of those things, all, all those things go into it. I, I hate that I'm like a broken record with this, but I, I always have this analogy of the a spa.
You go to a spa and you're paying, you're paying for the pleasure of sitting down in a tub, you know? Uh, or just sitting there, you know, maybe like getting, you know, and that's [00:58:00] 150 bucks, you know? Mm-hmm. You pay extra for the food, you know, that's another thing. You get on top of that, but you're, you're paying for the pleasure of being in this space.
And now should somebody pay a $50 to come to a restaurant outside of the food? No, but like, there's, there's a, there's a cost to just running and operating a space that you get to go to, and you don't have to worry about anything. You just go there and you have the experience that you wanna have, then you leave, and sometimes you're not paying.
To have that really elegant experience with candles or whatever you're paying because you only have 30 minutes for lunch. Right. And you eat a salad and you're not gonna go home and make a salad and you can have a, you know, something you bring from home or you can go to, you know, just salad and grab something that's gonna take you two minutes and then you're gonna, you know, be able to go and have a, a salad with plenty of time to go have a call.
And that's what you're paying for too. And I think the experience is a big part of what you pay for, maybe more so than Yeah. You know, just the food and the service. Those things are kinda like, yeah. Somebody's taking care of you.
Dan Kluger: Yeah. I had, I had this discussion with an old regular of our, at one point, and she was complaining about the price of a [00:59:00] burger somewhere else, and that led to the price of hours.
And ours was like the same, if not a dollar less than this other place. And she's like, well, I won't pay, I won't pay more than whatever. It's $27 for the burger. And I'm like, okay. But you realize like we, we, we buy. Beef that we grind ourself. We buy cheese from the farmer's market. We make our own bacon. We use lettuce from the farmer's market.
We buy handmade buns from a local, uh, bakery. And I'm going through the, you know, we make our own sauce, we pickle our own pickles. Oh, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, yeah, but that's like the max I would pay. And I'm like, but that other place, they're not doing any of that. Yeah,
Josh Sharkey: yeah.
Dan Kluger: And you don't want to pay more.
Yeah. And she's like, no, no, no. Kind of like arable about it. I said, just outta curiosity, how much is your handbag? She's like, stop. I'm like, how much? Finally, she admits it's $4,000. Yeah. So $4,000 worth of handbag, which you're [01:00:00] not consuming. It's a, it's something you carry around, but you won't spend 27 or $28 on something that you're consuming.
All natural antibiotic, hormone free, organic, blah, blah, blah, blah. And again, you know, your iPhone, your iPhone's a thousand dollars right now. It is incredibly important to us. But you're not consuming it. It is, you know, you, you could get an iPhone for less money.
Josh Sharkey (2): And, you know, there are utility I guess that you can, you can use frequently, but again, the price point is, it's relative.
But I think they, they, they do a better job of explaining why you would, you would do that because you're not, it's not just that you make the pickles in house and you buy this beef from this farm and grind and you also, you have that on demand for every person that comes in. You don't have to like, have somebody come in tell you they want a burger and then you go grind the meat and Right.
Find the cheese and like you have to store all that stuff it consistently at, at, at a temperature, which means you have to pay for a larger one, you know? Right. A space to, to store it all. And you have to store it in compliance. 'cause you, you're of a health department [01:01:00] and all those things are things that, that go into, um, you know, having something that somebody can have in a reasonable amount of time, you know, among all the other services.
And so, and god knows when you
Dan Kluger: run outta something, you know how, how pissed off somebody will be.
Josh Sharkey (2): Yeah. It, it is interesting. I don't know if there, there, if there will be a breaking point when. I mean, eggs just went up by what? Like, they're like, you know, like $15 a dozen. You do you have an egg pasta on the, the menu?
Mm,
Dan Kluger: yeah. Okay. Did that increase in price? No.
No.
Dan Kluger: Does scrambled eggs increase in price? No. But they should. They should. But again, it's like, I look at as like, how, how much am I willing to pay as a customer? Which again, I, I know that I should be charging more. Yeah. But I look at it as like, what's the average customer gonna say when they see the price of the egg?
Yeah. But then I go, I mean, there's a diner and pretty
Josh Sharkey (2): get scrambled eggs at your restaurant in their house.
Dan Kluger: Hell yeah. I mean, they don't, they don't have to do any of the cleaning. Yeah, they don't have to, they don't have to do any of the prep. I mean, like, I, there's a diner up by us. [01:02:00] The price of their pancakes is more than the price of the pancakes at lowering place.
The price of the scrambled eggs is the same as the price. I think
Josh Sharkey (2): you're just not charging enough. Man.
Dan Kluger: I'm probably not. But again, I'm, I, you know, I'm, I'm always on the, I mean, I maybe stupidly so 'em on this. Hospitable side of Yeah. Of the guest. Right. And, and being conscious of the, the other part is like, the last thing I wanna do is charge where I probably should and find out that you didn't enjoy it.
That's, I mean, that's like the nail in the coffin for me, right? Yeah. Just personally, like if it's, it's one thing if it wasn't super expensive Yeah. But I'm charging, if I'm charging what I need to charge and we miss the, the mark on something that
Josh Sharkey (2): hurts me. That that's what's, that's what's difficult. But I can't speak for everybody, but the times that I've had to pay more for something, or it what I perceived as more, even though it probably was the price they should charge, um, I was kind of okay with it.
When, when it was just a great experience. It's like, yeah, yeah, that was expensive. But
eh,
Josh Sharkey (2): you [01:03:00] know, I, there's, there's a lot of studies done on pricing and, uh, there's one premise that like, people should be slightly uncomfortable with the price. Um, yeah. So because it is a bargain between the two, the two, the two people.
We don't need to go in a, in a tangent anymore about pricing. What I'd love to actually ask you about, just because I I haven't really been through it much, is, is your cookbook, because, uh, I'd love to know like the, the experience of like, how did that, first of all, how did it happen? Like, how did you, like someone come to you and say, Hey, do you wanna write a cookbook?
Or did you decide you wanna write a cookbook? And then what was that like experience, like to get it from have this idea to now chasing flavor is a, is a, is a book for everybody.
Dan Kluger: I mean, I guess it's part of the evolution of a chef these days, right? Like, you, you open a restaurant, then you open up, then you create a book, et cetera, et cetera.
I mean, something like I, I knew I needed to do as a bit of a marketing tool for, for myself, for the restaurant. Um, but I really, I, I've wanted to write something for a long time of, again, you talk about instant gratification when somebody says like, oh, I loved [01:04:00] whatever it was, right? Can you gimme the recipe like that, that really hits home like that, that makes you feel like you've done something right?
And so. I, I wanted to be able to, uh, put that on paper and be able to give those recipes out. And I also wanted it to be a little bit educational, not just a list of recipes. I think click yours. Think like a chef, hands down my favorite book in how it approaches cooking, how it approaches recipe development, how it approaches technique, and how it says put it all together to make a meal.
So I, I kind of wanted to create some that had a little bit of that educational component. I was really, really fortunate. Um, you know, we kind of start on the process. I have incredible friend and, and agent David Black, who I think, you know, um, did I just do everybody's book? He does everybody's book. Yeah.
Yeah. He, he's everybody. I mean, everybody
Josh Sharkey (2): that's got like a, you know Yeah.
Dan Kluger: He's everybody's friend. And so he and I had been talking for a while about it, and I, and I got super, super lucky that one [01:05:00] night, a friend of mine who at that point I think was the. The head of Harper Collins, uh, happened to come to dinner here.
Uh, and I already knew her. And so we were just chatting, but nothing to do with the book. And an editor from Harper Collins, Houghton Mifflin, um, was dining with her and at the end I'm chatting with him and she's like, I was so blown away by this. I really, I wanna do a book with you. I'm like, oh, it's cool.
Yeah, we've been talking about it. She's like, no, I know, but no, I like, I really want do it. I'm, wow. Okay. And that was it from the wrong place? Yeah. Wow. And she said, can I come tomorrow and spend a few hours in the kitchen with you? Okay. I guess so. Sure. Like, it's kind of, you know. Yeah. Kind of different, right.
And she's like, I just wanna kind of see how you approach things. I'm like, well, interestingly, I'm, I'm working on two new, two new dishes tomorrow. So Perfect day. So we met at the farmer's market, picked up a bunch of things. Oh, that's cool. Came back and I made two dishes, one of which was, [01:06:00] uh, watermelon, kale, uh, grilled cantaloupe salad.
And that went on the menu that week. And she was so blown away by that whole process that literally got a, a, a cookbook agreement the next week. Wow. And so I got really lucky in that I didn't have to farm this out. I didn't have to Yeah. Go through the whole process that you normally have to go through.
Uh, and then at that point Dave and I started working on trying to figure out who we would work with for the writing. 'cause I'm not a writer. Uh, Nick Ol, who I think you know as well. He was incredible. He really spearheaded it and, and really kind of helped me figure out how to get the messages across.
And it ended up being something I'm very proud of. It does what I wanted it to do in that there's great recipes in there, but there's these little sections called takeaways, which are supposed to teach you, and they may teach you a technique. They may teach you like how you can use this one thing five different ways, and they may teach you kind of why we did this and how we did this.[01:07:00]
So it is a little bit, uh, you know, inspired by, I think like a chef. It it has these sort of building blocks of flavors. Yeah. I love the take away section. Yeah. And I, I think again, if you, if you like cookbooks and you want to cook, whether you're, you know, a novice or not, I think there's a lot in there that you can Yeah.
Take away from it. So it was, it was really an incredible process. Evan Sung, who I know you know very well, did all the photography and I just think he's, he's best, absolutely incredible. Um, both as a, as a human being, as a friend and, and also like as a photographer.
Josh Sharkey (2): E Evan, shout out to Evan is probably like the most professional diner I know.
Yes. He used to write a book on how to be a Yeah. You know, a diner. He's, he's the best. I don't wanna see his credit card bill. Oh. Well, hopefully, uh, hope most times he's getting a little bit of a hookup, but. All right. We've taken up a ton of your time. Thank you. This is awesome, man. Thanks you. I'm glad we done, glad we finally did it.
And thanks for letting us use, uh, the private dining room at, uh, lowering Places. This is P Pdr, R one PR one. I went to the wrong room [01:08:00] at first, but oh, this is great. Thank you. Thanks for tuning into The meez Podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the Song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist, fresh Daily.
For show notes and more, visit get me.com/podcast. That's getmeez.com/podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcast. Keep innovating. Don't settle. Make today a little bit better than yesterday.
And remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next [01:09:00] time.
